1863 Brass Cases by Buffalo Arms

[SHARPS54]

Gregg,
The buffalo slug shoots great at 50 and 100 yds but on windy days the buffalo slug is a bit drifty at 100 yds. For windy days i go to the Rapine ringtail w/o the ringtail for 100 yds and it doesn't seem to drift as bad. As for sights i have 2 sets of rear sights one for 50yds and one set up for 100yds. I dont like to flip the sight up for 100yds because its not the same sight picture as for 50yds. For paper i use onionskin 25%cotton which is getting hard to get,nitrate it and cut it into 1 1/2 x 2" pieces and whats left i cut into 1" squares for the bottom of the tubes. bye the way there is a Shiloh 63 on www.gunsamerica.com for $975.
Rick

[gmartin]

Todd,
As stated in my copy of "Round Ball to Rimfire, A History of Civil War Small Arms Ammunition, Part II, Federal Breech Loading Carbines and Rifles," ...."it is a fact that these weapons either functioned properly or were in adequate relative to the design and ingenuity of of the proprietory cartridges." This is speaking of the various types of weapons discussed. In addittion, "You do not know and understand your civil war gun unless you know and understand its ammunition!" Author's statement.
I believe this applies equally as well to modern replicas designed the same.
So eloquently put, obviously I never penned that. In the context of Civil War guns, "proprietory" speaks for itself due to the varieties available.
Gregg

[gmartin]

Rick,
I missed your thread somehow.
I shoot my Buffalo with a cartridge of 100 % cotton Vellum Vellux paper. Came upon this by accident. My next best is Sub Way type. Both un-nitrated as suggested by the designer of the cartridge type I use. Only the bases are. I found much less fouling actually, in anyway these can be fouled, which is plenty. Mine is 1 3/8" (chamber length) X 2 3/4" sealed with white glue. It is flush with the chamber if glued to the base band of the bullet. Use 70 g. 2fg. or a Pyrodex load with a .22 LR 3fg. kicker. I have found exceptional accuracy with 50g. P Pyrodex and cereal filler. At 100 yd. At 200 yd. my Buffalos key hole, some, disconcerting.
I have a NEI # 383 490 NS ring tail that I load with a cartridge of similar design on the ring tail, 1 1/2" X 2 1/2". It will take 63 g. 2fg. and shoots very well to 200 yd. The hardest mould I've ever cast with, I am the butt of jokes with my '63 pals for my troubles, but worth it.
Actually, I have 5 formers for different diameter bullets. I own another, less used and newer, Buffalo, that weighs less, has larger grease grooves and smaller driving bands. Seems to shoot less well, but I need to use it more.
My 100 yd. sight is right on with my Buffalo, NEI's print 12" low. At 50 yd. I shoot 6" low of bull. At 200 yd. I must use my 300 yd. ladder notch as the "200 yd." notch puts my rounds way low, say 2 feet at least. I must sight with the front blade and bull in the bottom of the 'V', rather than using a regular hold. This I found through trial and error trying to get bullets on the paper in our Postal Shoot.
It seems that I've not talked to anyone whose '63 sights, military issue, were calibrated the same. Would be nice to know of other's experiences.
Best, Gregg

[klw]

I wonder if you could buy a supply of these cases from Buffalo Arms and they have Shiloh make a rifle to match?

I wonder too if something much simplier might work? What would happen if you could get a copper disk made that was an almost exact fit to the rear of the chamber. Fill the chamber with powder, place the disk over the end of it (obviously the gun would have to be pointed almost straight down) and close the breech. Wonder if that would prevent blackpowder fouling buildup?

[Todd Birch]

KLW

I think what you are talking about has already been invented.

They call them drawn brass centre fire casings with a primer pocket in the base.
Shiloh and many others make rifles of that type in a variety of calibres.

The idea behind shooting a '63 paper cartridge rifle is to.......shoot a paper cartridge rifle!

Who'da thunk it?

Yes, this presents a variety of ammunition problems, but those of us who shoot '63s regard this as part of the fun. Making a '63 into something it was not in it's original form and altering it's ammunition form simply does not compute.

In my humble opinion, of course.

TB

[klw]

I've seen this topic show up several times over the years. It invariably goes nowhere because some people insists that one must shoot paper cartridges in these guns. BUT the point is that some want to shoot a lot and the fouling limits that. Too bad that these discussions are always taken over by those talking about the virtues of paper. Paper has its place BUT respect for those who don't want to do that is important too.

[Rich Siegel]

KLW

You mention a fouling problem shooting the paper cartridges. I shoot in matches where we shoot at least 13 rounds between cleaning. I use 50 grains of GOEX FFG powder in a nitrated copy paper and a 54 cal. 490 grain Rapine ring tail bullet. I've not experienced enough powder fouling to be a problem with the 13 rounds. After that number are fired, I wipe the bore with a damp patch followed by a dry patch and wipe the face of the breech with a damp patch to clean the breech. My carbine, however, has the "O" ring gas plate modification. I briefly had an unmodified Shiloh rifle and again, still could shoot 15 rounds without cleaning.

As to the brass cartridges for the '63 Sharps, no one has answered the question, how do you get them out? Many of my friends shoot Smith carbines in our competition (N-SSA skirmishes) and use brass or rubber cases. But the Smith has a hinged barrel assembly that when opened, leaves half the cartridge sticking out of the barrel so you can grab and extract it. The Sharps, at least as far as I can see, has no way to grab the cargridge unless you push out from the muzzle with a rod or use a knife to pry out the case. So folks who have tried the brass cases, how do you do it?

Thanks,

Rich

[klw]

That is an interesting question to which I do not know the answer. There has to be one, however, because these cases have been used in europe for years. I suspect that the problem here is that few know that these cases exist. Also different guns would take different cases (a rifle's chamber for example is longer than a carbines, at least in Pedersoli's) so finding a match between your gun and the available cases is difficult.

My interest in these is straight forward. I go shooting five days a week, ten or so months out of the year. Practice is only limited my whether or not Flagstaff has a harsh winter. For the 5 to 8 smokeless cartridge guns I take each day gun cleaning isn't much of an issue. For the blackpowder firearms, however, cleaning becomes a major time killer. I'd like to limit that any way I can.

[Todd Birch]

KLW & Rich

There are postings on this page that describe problems associated with using the brass inserts.
One of them is insertion as they are sold over sized and need to be fit to your chamber. Another is extraction.

BP fouling is inevitable whether one is shooting paper or brass cartridges.
Many BPCR shooters have to wipe between rounds or after a short string.
The cleaning of a BP rifle is duck soup compared to the rigamarole many 'white powder' shooters go through with powder solvents and copper residue removal.

The Shiloh '63 presents a little more of a problem with it's removeable shear plate and flash hole, somethig that would have to be done with paper rounds or brass inserts.

If you don't like the cleaning associated with shooting a '63, you must really appreciate cleaning a pile of dirty brass cartridges from shooting a '74!

TB

[HvyMtl]

Here we go again,

First off I love Flagstaff, but thats another story.

Second off, I shoot my Ped. and Shiloh with loose powder mostly because I am very lazy. I have made paper cartridges and have had very little fouling, I mean like hardly any at all. I don't use any nitrated paper at all and I use Clean shot instead of Black powder because the rifles seem to like it better, they are cleaner and more accurate. The Shiloh I haven't worked with that much because I just got it and its been wintery over here so I am waiting for nice weather.

I have 45/70's and I like shooting them also but there is something about a paper cartridge rifle that intrigues me. If I were to compare the cleaning of them both I would have to say they are equal.

P.S. I have the brass cartridges and they don't fit either gun!


Ken

[klw]

I've been seriously considering buying a Sharps but, well, a Maynard is a lot less work.

[bwbayless]

Sounds good to me.

Bob

[Rich Siegel]

klw,

You're right, Maynards are really easy to clean compared to a Sharps. It takes me 30 ro 40 minutes to clean my '63 Shiloh but then again, I don't have cartridge cases to clean like you would with a Maynard. You also have the expense of buying the cases for the Maynard. Usually $1 to $2 a piece for brass cases, the plastic ones are less but don't last as long and stick in the chambers.

I am now using an air compressor to help clean the Sharps. I take out the breech block, remove the nipple and gas shield and then throw the parts in a bucket of water. While they soak, I scrub the barrel and breech area. I use an old tooth brush to clean the milled groves in the breech area. Once clean, I dry the bore and oil it and then use the air conpressor to blow the water out of the breech area. I squirt oil on the breech area, blow that out with the compressor, and then grease the breech. By now, the breech block is fairly clean so I bruch the parts with the tooth brush, wash the parts with clean water then blow every thing dry with the compressor. I then spray the parts with oil, blow the excess oil off the parts and wip them down with an oily rag. Put grease on the breech block and assemble. Still takes me 30 minutes or more but, that's life.

Rich

[Rich Siegel]

Hi Members of the group,

I should have made one more comment to my last post. I really enjoy shooting the '63 carbine but cleaning and making paper cartridges, not to mention casting the bulets, is really time consuming. To solve the problem, a year ago, I purchased an 1874 carbine from Shiloh in 30/40. Now, I buy cheap jacketed bullets, reload the easy to obtain 30/40 cases, yet have the same fun and excellent practice shooting the military carbine. Cleaning takes 5 minutes and reloading the cases takes 1/5th the time.

Of course, for our competition, I shoot the '63 but do most of my pre-match practice with the '74.

Rich

[gpeak]

If you want to shoot brass cartridges, buy a '74.If you want to shoot paper, buy a '63. Anything else is a compromise with lots of potential problems.