What I plan to do

[Rabert]

Well, I wanna do three things in future and would like to use only one weapon for it:

1. Re-enacting a Civil War 1st Lieutenant of the Berdan Sharpshooters (because this was my rank when I resigned from the German Air Force).
2. Doing silhouette shooting.
3. Doing long range (creedmoor) shooting.

The most suitable weapon for re-enacting would be the Model 1863 Infantry without any doubt. However, is this rifle also competitive for silhouette and long range shooting? Are the Model 1863 Sharps competetive for shootouts and championships anyway? Or should I plan to purchase a 1874 Sharps for that earlier or later?

Best regards

Rabert

[Capt. Call]

I usually don't get out my Crystal Ball for someone so far away but being All my ancestors come Germany....I will make an exception!

It says..."You are a truely lucky man...You Need 3... Shilohs"

Thats just not fair...told me I only need 2!...where the hell is my Hammer?

[Rabert]

It says..."You are a truely lucky man...You Need 3... Shilohs"

Somehow I was expecting something like this...

Best regards

Rabert

[bwbayless]

Rabert,

I don't think the '63 would be the weapon of choice for anything long range in BPCR. Mainly because of the time allowed for the relays. It would really push you to get off 10 aimed rounds in the time allowed. I have yet to fire anything over 200 yards but I, for one, believe the '63 is capable of good accuracy at longer ranges. I will in the near future try it out and let you know. Not to near so don't hold your breath.

Bob

[gmartin]

Rabert,
Those of us who participated in the recent Postal Shoot are, to a man, ex military as well, one was stationed in Germany as well for some years.
Ditto what Capt. Call said, except my 3 Sharps would be '63's, I love them that much.
Bob's comments are correct as well. I might add that the added variables inherant with the '63 action and it's loading, fouling and cleaning would add to problems with its use in the BPCR circuit, though it has been done, and is a capable and accurate gun. Creedmore?, you could do it with a '63 but to maintain historical authenticy with barrel twist might lead you to reconsider this action much past 500 meters.
Best, Gregg

[Rabert]

Hello Gregg

Creedmore?, you could do it with a '63 but to maintain historical authenticy with barrel twist might lead you to reconsider this action much past 500 meters.

I've read a lot about long range shooting the past weekend. Two problems arose, which in fact make me reconsider this subject:

1. There is literally no easy accessable long range shooting range available in Germany. The German top notch long range BPCR shooters go to England for training. Sometimes there is a possibility to shoot at a military training area, but those are mostly several hundred miles away and participation cost you up to the equivalent of 100 USD per day - without travelling costs.

2. I've got the impression that the ability to read wind is more essential to be succesful at a creedmoor match then a good rifle/shooter combination. I want to be good at shooting, not at wind reading.

So most likely I will stick to re-enacting and silhouette.

Best regards

Rabert

[gmartin]

Rabert,
Well, I wondered about access to shooting for you after something you said earlier. I live in Idaho, and we have, aside from Alaska and Nevada, the greatest amount of public federal land, I believe 68% of our area. In short, we may simply shoot nearly anywhere, and safely if we choose well. If you choose to re-enact, silhouette shoot, and shoot <200 m, the '63, '59, and that sort is accurate and an awful lot of fun. One of our Postal Shoot members has a Pedersoli Berdan '59 3 band rifle that he used, double set triggers and a tang sight. I, as an aside, was given a very well made spruce green kipi of the sort used by Berdan's Sharpshooters as a birthday gift. Several people on this site are actively involved in Civil War Re-enacting and shooting through the NSS-A.
You would like it here, I ensure you.
Best, Gregg

[Josh A.]

Rabert, you mentioned shooting silhouette with a '63. Unless Europe has something other than American style silhouette, the '63 will be highly un-competitive with the cartridge rifles. It is vastly inferior to the the '74 and cannot effectively compete with it, either in firepower or accuracy over the silhouette course.

Just wanted to make sure that you knew that '63's compete with '63's, not the cartridge models.

Josh

[Rabert]

Thanks for the advice, Josh. Actually, there isn't even a possibility for silhouette shooting in Germany at present, just as you cannot shoot more then 300 meters with a black powder rifle in this county. First is due to weapons laws, second because of environmental issues of the lead bullets.

Today I had a telephone call with Ulrich Kwade, a member of the German world champion team of black powder long range shooting (what is quite astonishing given the fact that we can't train this distances over here). He was quite amused when I told him that I intend to use a paper cartridge rifle for long range shooting...

Best regards

Rabert

[Josh A.]

Rabert, he's right the '63 is absolutely unsuitable for long range. You might get lucky and hit a ram or two at 500 meters, but at 800yds and beyond the '63 is just a noise-maker. You would need to go to a muzzleloader (Gibbs style) or one of the cartridge rifles to hit anything.

J

[Todd Birch]

We don't know what is possible with a '63 until someone tries.

Josh is right, in that a '63 shoting against '74's would be handicapped in many ways.

Keeping the 63's historically pure with the original twist and bullet weights and competing within their limitations as we did with our recent postal shoot has a lot of appeal. I would hate to see it become an equipment race as it has with the '74s.
It is my understanding that not all of Berdans Sharpshooters were issued rifles with double set triggers. The ones I've seen in photos were not so equipped.
The Berdan Sharpshooters were required to shoot 10 shots as rapidly as they could reload out to 200 yards, modern 'battle sight' range, and not necessarily with a '59 or '63, but a rifle of their own supply. I believe that the actual conditions were posted on this page a while back.

For safety reasons, that wouldn't be a good idea using paper cartridges in a '63.

Todd

[gmartin]

Todd, Rabert, Josh,
Just about got my dander up Josh, but not really. Indeed, if we keep to the original twist rate of the '59-'63 action, whether it be a sporter or of military sort, we would be hadicapped by that limitation, and I truely believe, by that limitation alone! The '63 with a paper cartridge or loose loaded in my experience can shoot with the cartridge guns one on one until this limitation of bullet instability plays itself out. What range?, I couldn't tell you, but the most meticulous BPCR shooter and his concern for cases that weigh this and that could be surprised. Like Todd said, it just has to be done. And yes of course I know you own a '63 Josh. We did enjoy this years Postal Shoot, a serious enough event, but also one where every one was on the same playing field.
Best, Gregg

[Josh A.]

Gmartin, with all due respect the '63 with ANY twist rate won't stay with a '74 at any range. Sure a '63 might do ok out to 200 or so, but my silhouette rifle (which is certainly not as accurate as some) will do 5" at 300 meters all day long. A '63 might do 12" to 14" at that same 300m. I have seen one master class shooter run a string through his silhouette rifle at 200yds, on paper (14rnds), that was 1 1/2". That was scoped, testing loads. A '63 is not going to do that chucked up in a vise.

The '63 is a fine weapon and I really like mine, but it is not as accurate a rifle system as the '74 that replaced it. Simple as that.

Take care,

J

[Todd Birch]

Josh

I tend to agree with your assessment of the '63s accuracy potential.

Berdan's boys were not employed in a sniper role, but as rapid fire skirmishers in the set piece battles fought by massed ranks of infantry.

The looked for "targets of opportunity" and used their firepower to advantage when the tactical situation required.
That means virtually all of their targets were well within conventional rifled musket range.
They probably were not any more effective at these tasks than soldiers armed with seven shot Spencers.

I intend to explore what my '63 will do beyond 200 yards, but I feel it will be 'minute of mounted Officer".

Todd

[Josh A.]

Todd, I've shot my '63 some at my turkey swinger (385m) and the best I could do was about 3 feet. It is absolutely rotten in the wind. Short fat bullet is bad to drift. Headwind/tailwind situation plays hell with the elevation.

If you had a custom mould cut that was a long bore rider, carefully breech seated and then filled the chamber with powder, it might perform better.

J