Hi
As you know I have a 63 military, I have tried many different loads and have found I am getting groups of about 1 1/2" at 100 yrds with 60 gn. 2f. The problem is, if I load a cartridge with bullet over powder it is short and I'm having a hard time getting it to go off. I tried opening up the base and it still wouldn't ignite, I had to shake the powder back to the block and then it would ignite. I tried using a filler to make the cartridge longer this made them ignite fine, but I lost all group size, well lets say you could throw a cat at it and not hit a bullet hole. How might I get them to ignite and not have to use a filler? Do you have any words of wisdom that may help? Thank you
Good Shootin
Dan
gmartin I could use help....Please
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mrrangerman
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gmartin
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Dan,
Wow Dan! I'll give it my best shot, acknowledging that others may be more qualified than I.
Well, I use 60 g. 2fg. as my basic standard as well, and experiment from there. My best groups have been made with this combination, bear with me.
Shiloh Buffalo Slug at 428 g., paper cartridge made Terry Behm style, 1 1 3/8" X 2 3/4 " of 100 % cotton tracing paper, un-nitrated except the base which is. Said powder charge and a .22 WRM amount of filler of corn meal or Malt-O-Meal, glued to base of bullet with grease grooves exposed for an OAL of 1 7/8 " which is perfectly flush with the flash hole. I use Rich Siegel's lube, but if you are getting such good groups at 100 yd., you have that all figured out.
My carbine with this ball will give me 1 1/2 " as well, and do well out to 130 yd. where somewhere the Buffalo becomes unstable before it gets to 200 yd. An NEI ringtail design shoots well out that far, and, here is the kicker, I use a powder charge of just 50 g. 2fg. with the cartridge attached to the ring tail, AND NO FILLER.
With the experience you are having I must say that your OAL is short for the rifle , obvious statement I know. I will not argue with your experiences with a filler or none used, every rifle is different.
What I might do, and keeping your accurate bullet, is to try a greater powder charge so as to seat the cartridge flush with chamber and flash hole. Which means that your cartridge would have to be longer. I'm sure you have tried this, it sounds so obvious, but if not make a template for a longer cartridge and experiment with say, 20 or 30 rounds to see for sure if it is workable or not. Your velocity with 60 g. sounds optimum but a charge of up to 30 g. more may not be detrimental to accuracy. I understand some people use 1fg. with larger charges and shoot well, in the '63, but I also hear it doesn't work for others.
As well, I shoot well with a P Pyrodex load with a .22 LR carge of 3fg. to insure ignition, with a 50 charge, and yes, a filler. But a charge of Pyrodex in a larger cartridge MAY be more uniform and shoot differently, hopefully accurately.
To me you need a flush cartridge, I would work with what ever combination would give you that, and go from there.
Lastly, you could obtain a different bullet from friends, I did, and found several that shot well. IF one worked with an increased charge (maybe it wouldn't need it being a different length bullet) or worked with a filler, and was accurate, you could obtain a mould.
But I understand with working with a favorite. Todd Birch keeps ranting about a material called Pufflon (I'm sure that's correct) for his metallic BP cartridges, that may well be worth a try, I'm going to try it, though I haven't yet.
Someone else may recommend differently, I'm curious to see what becomes of this dilemma! (sp)
Gee, good luck, keep me posted here or elsewhere, I NEED to know what on earth as well. Best, Gregg
Wow Dan! I'll give it my best shot, acknowledging that others may be more qualified than I.
Well, I use 60 g. 2fg. as my basic standard as well, and experiment from there. My best groups have been made with this combination, bear with me.
Shiloh Buffalo Slug at 428 g., paper cartridge made Terry Behm style, 1 1 3/8" X 2 3/4 " of 100 % cotton tracing paper, un-nitrated except the base which is. Said powder charge and a .22 WRM amount of filler of corn meal or Malt-O-Meal, glued to base of bullet with grease grooves exposed for an OAL of 1 7/8 " which is perfectly flush with the flash hole. I use Rich Siegel's lube, but if you are getting such good groups at 100 yd., you have that all figured out.
My carbine with this ball will give me 1 1/2 " as well, and do well out to 130 yd. where somewhere the Buffalo becomes unstable before it gets to 200 yd. An NEI ringtail design shoots well out that far, and, here is the kicker, I use a powder charge of just 50 g. 2fg. with the cartridge attached to the ring tail, AND NO FILLER.
With the experience you are having I must say that your OAL is short for the rifle , obvious statement I know. I will not argue with your experiences with a filler or none used, every rifle is different.
What I might do, and keeping your accurate bullet, is to try a greater powder charge so as to seat the cartridge flush with chamber and flash hole. Which means that your cartridge would have to be longer. I'm sure you have tried this, it sounds so obvious, but if not make a template for a longer cartridge and experiment with say, 20 or 30 rounds to see for sure if it is workable or not. Your velocity with 60 g. sounds optimum but a charge of up to 30 g. more may not be detrimental to accuracy. I understand some people use 1fg. with larger charges and shoot well, in the '63, but I also hear it doesn't work for others.
As well, I shoot well with a P Pyrodex load with a .22 LR carge of 3fg. to insure ignition, with a 50 charge, and yes, a filler. But a charge of Pyrodex in a larger cartridge MAY be more uniform and shoot differently, hopefully accurately.
To me you need a flush cartridge, I would work with what ever combination would give you that, and go from there.
Lastly, you could obtain a different bullet from friends, I did, and found several that shot well. IF one worked with an increased charge (maybe it wouldn't need it being a different length bullet) or worked with a filler, and was accurate, you could obtain a mould.
But I understand with working with a favorite. Todd Birch keeps ranting about a material called Pufflon (I'm sure that's correct) for his metallic BP cartridges, that may well be worth a try, I'm going to try it, though I haven't yet.
Someone else may recommend differently, I'm curious to see what becomes of this dilemma! (sp)
Gee, good luck, keep me posted here or elsewhere, I NEED to know what on earth as well. Best, Gregg
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mrrangerman
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dm3280
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You may also try something else
I read your post and was wondering if you have tried different caps. Also have you enlarged the flash hole any? I had a 63 that would not go off using pyro. I found a musket nipple that fit and had a larger flash hole that eliminated the problem. Maybe a hotter cap or bigger flash hole will allow more spark to get to the charge and set it off.
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gmartin
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Dan, Dm3280,
I understand I'm very lucky in the flash channel game, from problems others have had. My 1978 Farmingdale ignites a cartridge a full 1/4" past the chamber, and straight Pyrodex as well.
As far as cartridges go do try to insure they are not floppy, but as tight as can be. The paper I use helps, though it is not as stiff as the copy paper some use.
I have done this. I've made a a 60 g. enclosed cartridge with no bullet inserted. It looks like a round sealed tube, nitrated at both ends, and I have it constructed so as to fit behind a finger seated bullet. I did this to use some bullets I had when I used to shoot with a bullet started with a wooden starter provided by Shiloh, and a sheared folded cartridge. After I first attempted proper cartridges with the ball inserted and that worked so much better, I gave up on this.
But, the "capsule" looking cartridge behind a finger seated bullet shot well. And, oddly, no need for a filler of any sort, made this way 60 g. was flush with the chamber.
Forgot to tell you this.
One of course could always loose load, but the advantages of a cartridge are too great, for me anyway.
I don't get how a filler would be detrimental, but I do believe you. I've used cereals and tissue paper with equal succes, but a measured amount of cereal is so much more uniform.
I wish you luck, and hunting as well.
Gregg
I understand I'm very lucky in the flash channel game, from problems others have had. My 1978 Farmingdale ignites a cartridge a full 1/4" past the chamber, and straight Pyrodex as well.
As far as cartridges go do try to insure they are not floppy, but as tight as can be. The paper I use helps, though it is not as stiff as the copy paper some use.
I have done this. I've made a a 60 g. enclosed cartridge with no bullet inserted. It looks like a round sealed tube, nitrated at both ends, and I have it constructed so as to fit behind a finger seated bullet. I did this to use some bullets I had when I used to shoot with a bullet started with a wooden starter provided by Shiloh, and a sheared folded cartridge. After I first attempted proper cartridges with the ball inserted and that worked so much better, I gave up on this.
But, the "capsule" looking cartridge behind a finger seated bullet shot well. And, oddly, no need for a filler of any sort, made this way 60 g. was flush with the chamber.
Forgot to tell you this.
One of course could always loose load, but the advantages of a cartridge are too great, for me anyway.
I don't get how a filler would be detrimental, but I do believe you. I've used cereals and tissue paper with equal succes, but a measured amount of cereal is so much more uniform.
I wish you luck, and hunting as well.
Gregg
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mrrangerman
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- Location: Michigan
dm3280
I thought of making the flash hole bigger, and inspected the nipple and found the nipple flash hole to be the same size as the hole in the block that it seats against. Do you drill through the nipple and block or just the nipple? I don't see how drilling through just the nipple would help, I would think I would have to drill through both, and if I did that would that void the warranty? As for hotter caps I haven't tried that yet, but may have to. Thanks for the help.
gmartin
I did have one load that after loaded was in about 1/4" from the edge and didn't have a problem with them igniting, but they didn't group very good. I've not had a problem with any being floppy and am going to still see if maybe I can add just enough filler untill they will ignite and still hold a group. I would like to get it to shoot at least 3" - 4" group at 100 yds. before I will hunt with it. If that don't happen there is aways the flint lock. I'll keep yall posted on what happens.
Good Shootin
Dan
I thought of making the flash hole bigger, and inspected the nipple and found the nipple flash hole to be the same size as the hole in the block that it seats against. Do you drill through the nipple and block or just the nipple? I don't see how drilling through just the nipple would help, I would think I would have to drill through both, and if I did that would that void the warranty? As for hotter caps I haven't tried that yet, but may have to. Thanks for the help.
gmartin
I did have one load that after loaded was in about 1/4" from the edge and didn't have a problem with them igniting, but they didn't group very good. I've not had a problem with any being floppy and am going to still see if maybe I can add just enough filler untill they will ignite and still hold a group. I would like to get it to shoot at least 3" - 4" group at 100 yds. before I will hunt with it. If that don't happen there is aways the flint lock. I'll keep yall posted on what happens.
Good Shootin
Dan
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gmartin
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Dan,
I'm bothered by your problem. I understand shooting problems unresolved myself. Please don't accept a lesser degree of accuracy by using filler. It's just that mine seem to accept a filler material well. That synthetic Pufflon, what ever it is, may be worth a try.
To accept a pasted bullet with a cartridge flush with the chamber how much powder is reguired? My guess with mine would br 85 to 90 g., maybe less. Now I must find out.
Speaking of different bullets, when I use the # 383 NS 490 NEI bullet with a cartridge on the ring tail, I have discovered that I can stuff 60 g. and no more, and no filler, behind that ball (bullet).
If say you find that a charge of 85 g. is as accurate as your 60 charge use it. Your rifle should ignite it all, am not sure about my carbine too much past that.
Indeed, Keep us posted.
Gregg
I'm bothered by your problem. I understand shooting problems unresolved myself. Please don't accept a lesser degree of accuracy by using filler. It's just that mine seem to accept a filler material well. That synthetic Pufflon, what ever it is, may be worth a try.
To accept a pasted bullet with a cartridge flush with the chamber how much powder is reguired? My guess with mine would br 85 to 90 g., maybe less. Now I must find out.
Speaking of different bullets, when I use the # 383 NS 490 NEI bullet with a cartridge on the ring tail, I have discovered that I can stuff 60 g. and no more, and no filler, behind that ball (bullet).
If say you find that a charge of 85 g. is as accurate as your 60 charge use it. Your rifle should ignite it all, am not sure about my carbine too much past that.
Indeed, Keep us posted.
Gregg
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dm3280
- Posts: 550
- Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2003 6:11 pm
Nipple flash hole
I did not have to mess with the flash channel in the block, only the nipple. To be honest, I never thought about it. I do know that when I used pyro it would take about 3 caps to finally set the charge off. After I got the nipple with the larer hole it went off every time.
Before I went to filler and made my accuracy suffer, I would use loose powder and ball. What I use for hunting is a quick load made for shotgunners. It is a tube that is divided in the center and caps on each end, one red and one clear. It holds a .54 bullet in one end and powder charge in the other. That way I don't have to worry about breaking a cartridge in a hunting environment. I carry a short dowel rod to seat the bullet. I open the cap where the bullet is located and dump it in the chamber. Next I use the short dowel rod to seat the bullet. Next I open the other end of the tube and dump the powder charge in, shut the block and cap. Fast enough for hunting.
For target shooting if you want to use the paper cartridges you may just want to load the cartridge and break open the end to expose the powder.
Just a few thoughts. It's hard enough to find an accurate load. Now that you have one don't mess it up using filler, if your gun won't shoot right with it.
Good luck
Before I went to filler and made my accuracy suffer, I would use loose powder and ball. What I use for hunting is a quick load made for shotgunners. It is a tube that is divided in the center and caps on each end, one red and one clear. It holds a .54 bullet in one end and powder charge in the other. That way I don't have to worry about breaking a cartridge in a hunting environment. I carry a short dowel rod to seat the bullet. I open the cap where the bullet is located and dump it in the chamber. Next I use the short dowel rod to seat the bullet. Next I open the other end of the tube and dump the powder charge in, shut the block and cap. Fast enough for hunting.
For target shooting if you want to use the paper cartridges you may just want to load the cartridge and break open the end to expose the powder.
Just a few thoughts. It's hard enough to find an accurate load. Now that you have one don't mess it up using filler, if your gun won't shoot right with it.
Good luck
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gmartin
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Fellows,
The only problem I had with a dowel type starter was that it seemed to occasionally push a bullet in cocked oddly, and would print on target no square.
The paper cartridge seems to chamber the round 100% correctly for me.
As well, never a broken or even bent cartridge, though I never shot this thing in anger working on adrenalin.
I've heard of your idea DM, sounds OK certainly, I wish we could solve the cartridge problem.
Gregg
The only problem I had with a dowel type starter was that it seemed to occasionally push a bullet in cocked oddly, and would print on target no square.
The paper cartridge seems to chamber the round 100% correctly for me.
As well, never a broken or even bent cartridge, though I never shot this thing in anger working on adrenalin.
I've heard of your idea DM, sounds OK certainly, I wish we could solve the cartridge problem.
Gregg
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dm3280
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Question
I may have missed it but what are you using for the base of your paper cartridge? Are you using tissue paper or nitrated cig papers? I would like to see this work as well. I use filler and my gun shoots fine but if I can avoid using fillers it is one less step in the cartridge making process. I plan on playing around with this after deer season. I would now but I have to get 2 guns sighted in and gear ready before this weekend. I would love to use my 63 but I have not practiced enough to feel comfortable with it yet. From a bench I am fine but I have yet to see a deer walk at a know distance and stop right in front of my bench.
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gmartin
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- Location: Boise Id
dm3280,
Hi. I use nitrated Sub Way type paper cut in a circle 1 1/4 " and inserted into the un-nitrated tube of rather stiff cotton tracing paper.
The cartridges get bounced around quite a abit in my van and in the shooting box and always seem fine.
Man, with my carbine I don't believe I would attempt a shot at a deer past 100 yd., simply due to that unknown range factor. Most certainly it will do the job farther but with this self imposed limit I am comfortable as to where to aim. The animals I have shot with it, black bear, 2, were 25 and 50 yd., a proper hold thus no problem.
Gregg
Hi. I use nitrated Sub Way type paper cut in a circle 1 1/4 " and inserted into the un-nitrated tube of rather stiff cotton tracing paper.
The cartridges get bounced around quite a abit in my van and in the shooting box and always seem fine.
Man, with my carbine I don't believe I would attempt a shot at a deer past 100 yd., simply due to that unknown range factor. Most certainly it will do the job farther but with this self imposed limit I am comfortable as to where to aim. The animals I have shot with it, black bear, 2, were 25 and 50 yd., a proper hold thus no problem.
Gregg
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mrrangerman
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- Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 8:42 am
- Location: Michigan
Hello all
Well I put together 10 more rounds, five with 70gn. FF with DLG lube and a filler, and five with 65gn and Bore butter for lube and a filler. Will try them on Sat. I use a tissue for the base but only one ply so it is rather thin, almost see through. OAL is 1-7/8"
I'm going to buy some maxi balls and see what they do also. Where can I get nitrate to nitrate cig. paper to try for a base?
I did find out one thing, I tried five round the other day, and found I didn't have the cap pressed on far enough and was getting some blow by, I discovered this on the second shot. After making sure I pushed the cap down fermly with the remaning three shots I didn't have any missfires after that. On the five shots I took, I had three that were in a 3.5" group and two 1-1/4" apart but 4" below and to the left of the other group, making the over all group 7-1/2".
I will let yall know what happen with the next trial.
Good shootin
Dan
Well I put together 10 more rounds, five with 70gn. FF with DLG lube and a filler, and five with 65gn and Bore butter for lube and a filler. Will try them on Sat. I use a tissue for the base but only one ply so it is rather thin, almost see through. OAL is 1-7/8"
I'm going to buy some maxi balls and see what they do also. Where can I get nitrate to nitrate cig. paper to try for a base?
I did find out one thing, I tried five round the other day, and found I didn't have the cap pressed on far enough and was getting some blow by, I discovered this on the second shot. After making sure I pushed the cap down fermly with the remaning three shots I didn't have any missfires after that. On the five shots I took, I had three that were in a 3.5" group and two 1-1/4" apart but 4" below and to the left of the other group, making the over all group 7-1/2".
I will let yall know what happen with the next trial.
Good shootin
Dan
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gmartin
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- Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2004 9:55 pm
- Location: Boise Id
Dan,
Great experimentation there! My OAL with a Buffalo slug, which is a short .75" but nearly a bore riding ball, is 1 7/8 " as well, and this is perfectly flush with the chamber. The NEI # 383 490 NS ring tail with a 60 g. cartridge attatched to thae tail is 2 1/4" and some larger. Which leads me to this question, what bullet do you use? I used tissue by the way, but found cereal much easier to apply.
The groups you are getting recently were good, at least I hope they met your expectations.
Gee Dan, I'd be worried about your base, my stiffer paper of Sub Way type is quite solid and nitrated ignites well. I am going to try some paper tracing paper my wife got me for cartridges, to thin for that I found, but maybe a perfect nitrated base.
You will get alot of advice on this but this is what I do. Just use Potasium Nitrate, AKA Salt Peter, in a quart canning jar, adding it by the table spoon until it will no longer dissolve. That you pour over your paper in a jelly roll pan, and pour back the excess. the material to be nitrated will dry in the sun or near a registor quite well. Use it over and over.
My Salt Peter was a gift, I believe it was bought at Wal Greens.
Good luck, Gregg
Great experimentation there! My OAL with a Buffalo slug, which is a short .75" but nearly a bore riding ball, is 1 7/8 " as well, and this is perfectly flush with the chamber. The NEI # 383 490 NS ring tail with a 60 g. cartridge attatched to thae tail is 2 1/4" and some larger. Which leads me to this question, what bullet do you use? I used tissue by the way, but found cereal much easier to apply.
The groups you are getting recently were good, at least I hope they met your expectations.
Gee Dan, I'd be worried about your base, my stiffer paper of Sub Way type is quite solid and nitrated ignites well. I am going to try some paper tracing paper my wife got me for cartridges, to thin for that I found, but maybe a perfect nitrated base.
You will get alot of advice on this but this is what I do. Just use Potasium Nitrate, AKA Salt Peter, in a quart canning jar, adding it by the table spoon until it will no longer dissolve. That you pour over your paper in a jelly roll pan, and pour back the excess. the material to be nitrated will dry in the sun or near a registor quite well. Use it over and over.
My Salt Peter was a gift, I believe it was bought at Wal Greens.
Good luck, Gregg
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mrrangerman
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- Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 8:42 am
- Location: Michigan
Well I just got back and cleaned my gun, here's what happen.
I tried the five with Bore Butter and got a 4-1/2" group, three were in a 1-1/2" group, with two about 3" above the others side by side. I had good lube at the muzzle.
The next five 70gn with DLG lube shot a 7" group.
I also tried some maxi balls, the gun didn't like them AT ALL.
So it's looking like it is the lube that is giving me a fit. I'm happy enough with the first group that I'm going to load up some tomarrow and take it hunting on Monday, I'll try not to shoot anything over 100 yrd. Thats if I see anything.
Thank you all VERY much for the advice, after hunting is over I'm going really get down to business with this gun.
Good Shootin
Dan
I tried the five with Bore Butter and got a 4-1/2" group, three were in a 1-1/2" group, with two about 3" above the others side by side. I had good lube at the muzzle.
The next five 70gn with DLG lube shot a 7" group.
I also tried some maxi balls, the gun didn't like them AT ALL.
So it's looking like it is the lube that is giving me a fit. I'm happy enough with the first group that I'm going to load up some tomarrow and take it hunting on Monday, I'll try not to shoot anything over 100 yrd. Thats if I see anything.
Thank you all VERY much for the advice, after hunting is over I'm going really get down to business with this gun.
Good Shootin
Dan
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gmartin
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- Location: Boise Id
That's like my shooting, a couple of bullets in a 5 shot string, or one, will invariably mess up my total group size.
I take it they were flush with the chamber.
I wish you hadn't mentioned the lube, I was so happy with mine, now I must experiment with THAT!
These are too fun, if more folks owned the gas seal Sharps they'd see what I mean.
We need a picture of that buck.
Gregg
I take it they were flush with the chamber.
I wish you hadn't mentioned the lube, I was so happy with mine, now I must experiment with THAT!
These are too fun, if more folks owned the gas seal Sharps they'd see what I mean.
We need a picture of that buck.
Gregg