blowing gas and the percussion Sharps

[wayner]

Are there any percussion Sharps that don't blow gas out of the breech block area? Any that blow gas that is minimal and doesn't affect the shooter? What can keep the gas from blowing out of the breech? I have owned Pedersoli Percussion Sharps and have had gas blow to the point of not being able to shoot the rifle. They were 45cal. percussion Sharps replicas.

[HvyMtl]

Hello Wayner,

I have been shooting an 1859 Ped. rifle in 54cal. for about two years now and have never had blow by, I'm sure some of the other guys will put their 2 cents in and try to help you out when they read about your problem.

Ken

[Jean-Pierre]

having watched the video-tape that comes with each new Pedersoli-gun, I'v noticed that even their demonstration-sharps are no totally "air-tight".


The real problem is that some blocks just melt a the place where the gas escape....

A solution (not very historical but effective) could be the use of brass tubes that replaces the paper shells....

Of course, a competent gunsmith could improve the closure of your breech-block sometimes, it's even quite easy to do...... but my English is too poor, I just can't explain how it must be done.....(someone else will do!! )

Still hoping it was understandable; J-P.

[Rich Siegel]

Wayner,

You should never have gas blowback in a Sharps if the gas seal is operating properly. If your gas seal plate is not moving properly to seal the chamber, then you may have blowback and a problem. I forget how the plate is set up on a Pedersoli but if it's like a Shiloh, it is set in the breech in a very tight fit but moves back in the breech block when the block is opened. When the block is closed and the gun fired, gas is channeled behind the block, forcing it to move forward against the rear of the barrel and sealing the back end of the barrel, thus not allowing gas to leak out. If the gas seal plate is rusted or damaged, it might not be able to move forward to seal the rear of the barrel.

Another problem could be gas cutting on the gas seal plate. Hot gases from the barrel actually erode the plate, cutting channels in the plate, and the gases escape out of the action. You need a new gas plate to fix this problem. Many of us in the North-South Skirmish Association have our Sharps (both Shiloh and Pedersoli) modified by replacing the gas seal plates with ones made from chrome plated steel or bronz. This eliminates gas cutting of the steel plates. As a further modification, our gas plates are made slightly undersized so that they move very freely in the breech plate. A rubber "o" ring is then placed at the back of the gas seal plate, next to the breech block. When the gun is fired, the seal plate is forced back againe the "o" ring and seals the breech from escaping gases. After 300 or 400 rounds over the course of the summer shooting season, I'll replace the "o" ring.

We routinely shoot 40 to 60 rounds or so in a match without cleaning the breech block assembly with no gas leak problems. After the match, of course, we completely strip the breech block assembly for cleaning and make sure to take the gas seal plate out of the breech and clean it and the inside of the breech. Then we put grease on the seal plate before putting it back into the breech so that it moves freely.

I hope you can understand my description. Please yell if you can't.

Rich

[Jean-Pierre]

thank you for the explanation, it is very clear ; even someone like me, who hardly speaks English, can understand what you'v been describing.

As a new plate is quite difficult to find here we have another method to improve the sealing. I'll try to find someone who does really speak English to tell you about that (otherwise, I would bore you with cumbersome and useless explanations)

But you don't speak of the "floating chamber" (I don't kow how to call that) that is supposed to move in the barrel and is pushed backwards while the plate is forced forward ; this part should also be checked no?

Thank you one more time, especially for the "O" ring! I should have found that myself as this system is used on my Chassepot rifle!

[Rich Siegel]

Jean-Pierre

It's a very good question about the floating barrel sleeve or chamber. My friend, who owns a Pedersoli, thinks that the sleeve doesn't do anything if the breech gas seal is working correctly and thus, can be taken out. I'm not sure. The Shiloh's don't have the barrel sleeve/chamber and I think that's a good thing. I believe the original, old model Sharps, the slant breech models, may have had them but the straight breech Sharps, the 1859 and the 1863, to my knowledge, do not have them.

Rich

[Jean-Pierre]

In fact, I never heard about an original sharps who had a "moving sleeve" in the barrel but I'm far ( very far!) from being a specialist

Anyway, all the italian-made sharps I'v seen are made this way and it seems to work (more or less...) On some issues, it cannot be removed, even for cleaning.

Taking this "bushing" out in certainly not a good idea, as it would leave too much room for a correct loading.


PS: feel free to tell me about the mistakes I obviously make (I try to improve my English but it's hard for an old rascal like me...)

[HvyMtl]

Hello everyone,

My 1859 Ped. replica has a breech sleeve, when the rifle goes off it does indeed slide back and seal the block very well. It however does not slide out of the breech and I believe it is supposed to. The reason I think is due to the fact the barrel had to be tightened due to the sights being indexed wrong. I noticed when I got it back from Navy Arms the block worked a little tighter.

Rich, there is No plate on the block, the rifle depends soley on the breech sleeve to seal out gases.

The Shiloh 1863 also has a breech sleeve but it is a fixed position sleeve which means it does not move nor is it supposed to be able to come out. The Shiloh does have the floating plate on the block and it works very well to seal out the gases.

Ken

[Rich Siegel]

Ken,

I think even if your barrel had not been set back, the barrel sleeve might not have been able to come out. The opening, when the breech block is removed, is still not enough to let the sleeve come out.

As to my friends carbine, I was not aware there was no gas shield on the breech. He must have had the chrome gas shield and "o" ring added. His system works very well.


Rich

[HvyMtl]

Hi Rich,

Yes I have heard about that system from Bob Bayless ( God rest his soul )
he had it installed on his rifle and he said it worked very well. So far i've been lucky, no gas leakage. I also found out through trial and error that the rifle likes cleanshot, I tried BP and Triple seven, and Pyrodex but it shoots best and most accurate with the Cleanshot.

I was thinking of going to Maine for some deer and bear hunting in the next two weeks, vacation don't you know but I have to see who can go.

Ken

[Rich Siegel]

Ken

Bear hunting over bait is very good with high success rates. If you go hunting with dogs, be ready for a very good workout.

Deer, while bigger, are not well populated as say, Penn. or Ohio. Of course, we have a great amount of deep woods that have limited hunting pressure.

Rich

[dakotasharps]

On my 1859 Pedersoli the sleeve does slide back but there is not enough clearance in the action to remove it from the barrel. It dod not move initially but loosened up a bit after a hundred rounds or so. I clean as muhc of it as I can after shopoting sessions and lubricate it with CLP to prevent any corrosion and ensure it moves freely.

The gas plate is a snug fit but works very well with no gas leakage. I remove the gas plate at every cleaning both to faciltate cleaning the breechblock but also to ensure the plate is cleaned and well lubricated. Over the course of several hundred rounds and numerous cleanings, it has gotten a tiny bit looser in the breechblock, but I don't think this will cause problems as long as it is not excessive.

I think the important thing when removing the plate is to remove it by alternately prying from side to side to work it out evenly and prevent any excessive wear or damage. The system is pretty ingenious as it uses a greater surface area on the breech block side of the plate to force it tightly against the barrel and sleeve when the gun is fired. Both the barrel sleeve and the inner portion of the plate would also logically seem to expand slightly under pressure to prevent any gas leakage between them and the barrel or breech block.

In that regard the sleeve, once pressure builds, is not going to move any farther back so I can see the advantage of simplifying the design to eliminate it. As long as the breech block moves freely, the sleeve is not needed. However, the sleeve can be made of much harder (and more brittle) steel than the barrel itself, so I can also see the long term advantage of incorporating the sleeve in terms of avoiding gas cutting, scratching etc. .

[HvyMtl]

Hi Dakota,

I'm a little puzzled, are you saying that the 1859 Ped. you have has a gas plate on it? The reason is mine doesn't have one, it only has the sleeve which seems to work very well so far. It seems that as long as the breech block is kept reasonably clean the sleeve does what its supposed to, I clean the barrel about every 5-8 shots. I have shot as many as 10 times consecutively with very good accuracy.

Rich,

There seems to be much deer sign on my friends property in Maine, that being said its still 300 acres and I only scouted a small portion of it. I have never hunted bear and don't have the slightest idea how to bait or hunt them. What I do like is the rifle season is one month long and coinsides with the rut and i'm off the next two weeks, its very tempting.

Ken

[Trigger Dr]

HVYMTL
You should try CALLING bear. It works buddy, it works. Just be sure to be in a safe place with your back covered. There are tapes available as well as calls that can get you started.
WOODS WISE CALLS puts out one that is a good starter. You can find it at Sportsman Warehouse or call 1 800 735 8182
Jim

[wayner]

The Pedersoli I had did have the chamber sleeve and I could not remove it to clean. The rifle had the gas plate on the breech also and I could not remove it either. How do they come off? The last time I shot the rifle it blew my baseball hat off my head. I know that it being a 45 cal. it would have more pressure than a 54cal. There was a hole in the breech block plate with a nipple looking thing in the middle. The indentation that the chamber sleeve made in the gas plate crossed the bottom of the hole in the gas plate and left a space there. Gas cutting errosion started there and in other places. What do you think? I would like to know who puts the chrome gas plates on the guns????? I would like to know why a Shilo Sharps would benefit from a chrome gas check plate and the "o" ring put behind the plate. I thought they were top of the line? I'd try another Pedersoli if I knew of someone to go to if it needed fixed or modified with a chrome gas plate. It's hard for me to imagine a Pedersoli or a Shilo percussion that doesn't blow gas. If I were to get a Shilo rifle could I expect it to "not" blow gas? Would it be imperative that the Shilo be modified with a chrome gas plate and an "o" ring? Where exactly would an "o" ring go? Fit in some space made for it? Is the cost of having a chrome gas plate fitted to a Shilo much money if I could find someone to do it? Thanks for the imput guys. I know one thing. That first Pedersoli I had in 45 cal. was one really accurate rifle. I shot plenty of ground hogs from the farm fields with the ones I had. The 45 cal. can shoot as accurate as any 45/70 I've shot and be accurate way way out. Do they still make the 45 cal.? I loaded it with 70gr. ffg black. Too much? Both of the Pedersoli's I had had the indentation from the chamber sleeve come too close to the bottom of the hole in the gas check breech plate and gas cutting started there. I've seen a tool in the Dixie catalog that is made to pull the chamber sleeve out for cleaning. Anyone have one of those tools? Anyhow I do have a Shilo Sharps and a Pedersoli cartridge Sharps but they are not legal to hunt deer with them in this state. I have an affinity for the Percussion models anyhow and if I could figure this gas problem out I would buy another percussion. I really liked the ones I had.