Pyrodex Pellets
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TopperT
- Posts: 5
- Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2005 11:36 am
- Location: Fall River MA
Pyrodex Pellets
Does anyone have information re: Pyrodex Pellets in the "breach loader?????
"...always drink upstream of the heard..." Will Rogers
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HvyMtl
- Posts: 256
- Joined: Tue May 25, 2004 6:44 pm
- Location: Soviet state of New Jersey
Pellets:
Yes you can use Pyrodex pellets in the modern replica paper cartridge rifles, now it just depends on what caliber rifle you have as it won't work in 54 cal. because they don't make 58 caliber pellets. If you have a 45 or 50 cal. it certianly will work.
Ken
Ken
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OMD
- Posts: 40
- Joined: Mon Jun 02, 2003 11:42 pm
Topper,
My experience has been different than Wolfies's and HvyMtl's.
I've been using .54 caliber 60 grain pyrodex pellets in my .54 caliber model 1863 Shiloh Sharps for several years now. They work fine.
However, I tend to get better accuracy using Fg, and blackpowder is a whole lot easier to clean-up after.
You might want to search this site for previous discussions on this topic.
Owen
My experience has been different than Wolfies's and HvyMtl's.
I've been using .54 caliber 60 grain pyrodex pellets in my .54 caliber model 1863 Shiloh Sharps for several years now. They work fine.
However, I tend to get better accuracy using Fg, and blackpowder is a whole lot easier to clean-up after.
You might want to search this site for previous discussions on this topic.
Owen
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HvyMtl
- Posts: 256
- Joined: Tue May 25, 2004 6:44 pm
- Location: Soviet state of New Jersey
Pellets:
Hello Owen,
If you have a 54 cal. don't the 54 cal. pellets fit loosely due to needing 58 cal. pellets. ? In other words, in a 45 cal. the 50 cal. pellets would fit very well and in the 50 cal. the 54 cal. pellets would fit. I don't doubt you if you say your using it , but is it safe due to the air space in the chamber ? This might be the reason your getting better accuracy with regular BP.
Ken
If you have a 54 cal. don't the 54 cal. pellets fit loosely due to needing 58 cal. pellets. ? In other words, in a 45 cal. the 50 cal. pellets would fit very well and in the 50 cal. the 54 cal. pellets would fit. I don't doubt you if you say your using it , but is it safe due to the air space in the chamber ? This might be the reason your getting better accuracy with regular BP.
Ken
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OMD
- Posts: 40
- Joined: Mon Jun 02, 2003 11:42 pm
Hi Ken,
The 54 caliber pellet do fit a bit loose, but I don't think the air space in the chamber of this rifle creates a safety concern. Even if you are using paper cartridges or loose black powder there is a lot of air space in the breech block and it does not appear to pose a problem.
I think as general rule air space is the enemy of accuracy. However, I also believe that good quality black powder produces greater accuracy than does pyrodex. In the past, I have had better results with 45 grains of FFg poured loosely in the chamber than with a .54 caliber 60 grain pyrodex pellet -- and 45 grains does not fill the chamber.
Owen
The 54 caliber pellet do fit a bit loose, but I don't think the air space in the chamber of this rifle creates a safety concern. Even if you are using paper cartridges or loose black powder there is a lot of air space in the breech block and it does not appear to pose a problem.
I think as general rule air space is the enemy of accuracy. However, I also believe that good quality black powder produces greater accuracy than does pyrodex. In the past, I have had better results with 45 grains of FFg poured loosely in the chamber than with a .54 caliber 60 grain pyrodex pellet -- and 45 grains does not fill the chamber.
Owen
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Todd Birch
- Posts: 2133
- Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2004 12:01 pm
- Location: Somewhere in the Cariboo ....
Pyrodex Pellets in '63s
Gentlemen
Again the "experts" and nay-sayers jump in with no personal experience or historical data to back up their claims.
More than once I have posted something on this forum about my success in using Pyrodex pellets in my .50 Shiloh Military Rifle.
I contacted the Hodgdon and ran it past them and they OK'd it.
Rolling a .512 sized and lubed Lyman 515141 with a .54 60 gr Pyrodex pellet makes a very authentic looking, easy handling round. I find them quite accurate and very easy shooting.
I have tried both nitrated and un-nitrated paper and haven't come to a definite conclusion as yet. I'd like to try some wrapped in gauze and shellacked to really waterproof them.
I just ran a cross an article in the January 1981 issue of the NRA "Rifleman" magazine entitled "American Combustible Ammunition".
All I did with the Pyro pellets was re-invent the wheel. Read on...
"The first American caselesss cartridge was patented by Roberts Bartholow on My 21, 1861. This invention, U.S. Letters Patent #32,345, consisted of finely dividing the ingredients of blackpowder, mixing them with tincture of shellac, molding the mixture into solid expl;osive castings and attaching these to different sized projectiles "adapted to various types of firearms".
The attaching material was described as "marine glue or some other adhesive substance", well may well have been the case, but the few specimens extant are reinforced with a silk or linen tape.
The original packets mention the "waterproof" aspect of the Bartholow, which was achieved by coating the cartridges with tincture of shellac.
The last line of the instructions, printed on the label, calls for the ball to be rammed well home. This mayhave necessary to break up the molded charge to insure ignition."
This latter instruction does not apply to Pyro pellets as they have a coating of BP on the base and a hole through the pellet to insure good ignition.
It gets better....
"Another caseless cartridge that saw considerable use in the Civil War is described in two patents by R.O. Doremus and B.L. Budd, U.S. Letters Patent #34,724 and 34,725, both dated March 18, 1862.
These inventors claimed the "forming of ordinary granulated gun powder into solid shapes suitable for use as cartridges by compacting same in dry condition within molds by pressure so applied as to condense said powder into shapes."
Pressure was applied until the powder was "sufficiently condensed to cause the grains to adhere to each other and to the base of the projectile."
Many advantages were claimed of this "mode of treating gun powder to form cartridges:
- there was a reduction in bulk so that a larger quantity could be transported in a given space
- less deterioration by age
- less absorption of moisture
- and most important, the ability to "govern the rapidity of combustion".
Doremus and Budd had discovered that there was an inverse relationship between the pressure applied to the powder during the forming process and the rate of combustion. They then conceived (and claimed the rights for) a cartridge "formed of powder compressed into a strata of different dgrees of combustibility" which would impart to said powder "the principle of acceleration".
Whether such stratified charges were ever produced is not known. The concept was not advertised, and any ballistic advantage was probably outweighed by the cost of manufacture.
The original packaging describes these cartridges as "pressed" or compressed" amd "waterproof". Some specimens have a rather glazed aspect, indicating that they were "made wholly waterproof by varnishing the poutside with shellac or collodion", as described in a third Doremus/Budd patent #34,744, dated March 25, 1862.
In addition to the patented cartridges, there was a multitude of other combustibles used by both sides during the Civil War. Most of these were made of paper or linen and were produced for such guns as Sharps, Merrill, Starr, Union, Gibbs, maynard, Colt, LeMat, Lindner, and others."
If you check any reference on Civil War ammunition, you will see that many rounds (Sharps among them) had odd looking powder tubes of paper, skin or gut containing the charge attached to the projectile with thread or glue.
The space in the chamber was obviously not an issue any more than it is when the base of a paper tube is sheared off and the loose powder falls into the cavity of the breech block.
These would seem to establish an historical precedent for the use of compressed propellant paper cartridges in breechloading arms of the Civil War era.
No one who can afford to own and shoot a Shiloh product can reasonably object to the cost of Pyrodex pellets in making up ammunition for a '63. None of these rifles are cheap to own and shoot in brass case ammunition either.
Until someone can tell me how to safely compress BP into pellets, I shall continue to use Pyro pellets in my '63 and feel both safe and historically correct.
TB
Again the "experts" and nay-sayers jump in with no personal experience or historical data to back up their claims.
More than once I have posted something on this forum about my success in using Pyrodex pellets in my .50 Shiloh Military Rifle.
I contacted the Hodgdon and ran it past them and they OK'd it.
Rolling a .512 sized and lubed Lyman 515141 with a .54 60 gr Pyrodex pellet makes a very authentic looking, easy handling round. I find them quite accurate and very easy shooting.
I have tried both nitrated and un-nitrated paper and haven't come to a definite conclusion as yet. I'd like to try some wrapped in gauze and shellacked to really waterproof them.
I just ran a cross an article in the January 1981 issue of the NRA "Rifleman" magazine entitled "American Combustible Ammunition".
All I did with the Pyro pellets was re-invent the wheel. Read on...
"The first American caselesss cartridge was patented by Roberts Bartholow on My 21, 1861. This invention, U.S. Letters Patent #32,345, consisted of finely dividing the ingredients of blackpowder, mixing them with tincture of shellac, molding the mixture into solid expl;osive castings and attaching these to different sized projectiles "adapted to various types of firearms".
The attaching material was described as "marine glue or some other adhesive substance", well may well have been the case, but the few specimens extant are reinforced with a silk or linen tape.
The original packets mention the "waterproof" aspect of the Bartholow, which was achieved by coating the cartridges with tincture of shellac.
The last line of the instructions, printed on the label, calls for the ball to be rammed well home. This mayhave necessary to break up the molded charge to insure ignition."
This latter instruction does not apply to Pyro pellets as they have a coating of BP on the base and a hole through the pellet to insure good ignition.
It gets better....
"Another caseless cartridge that saw considerable use in the Civil War is described in two patents by R.O. Doremus and B.L. Budd, U.S. Letters Patent #34,724 and 34,725, both dated March 18, 1862.
These inventors claimed the "forming of ordinary granulated gun powder into solid shapes suitable for use as cartridges by compacting same in dry condition within molds by pressure so applied as to condense said powder into shapes."
Pressure was applied until the powder was "sufficiently condensed to cause the grains to adhere to each other and to the base of the projectile."
Many advantages were claimed of this "mode of treating gun powder to form cartridges:
- there was a reduction in bulk so that a larger quantity could be transported in a given space
- less deterioration by age
- less absorption of moisture
- and most important, the ability to "govern the rapidity of combustion".
Doremus and Budd had discovered that there was an inverse relationship between the pressure applied to the powder during the forming process and the rate of combustion. They then conceived (and claimed the rights for) a cartridge "formed of powder compressed into a strata of different dgrees of combustibility" which would impart to said powder "the principle of acceleration".
Whether such stratified charges were ever produced is not known. The concept was not advertised, and any ballistic advantage was probably outweighed by the cost of manufacture.
The original packaging describes these cartridges as "pressed" or compressed" amd "waterproof". Some specimens have a rather glazed aspect, indicating that they were "made wholly waterproof by varnishing the poutside with shellac or collodion", as described in a third Doremus/Budd patent #34,744, dated March 25, 1862.
In addition to the patented cartridges, there was a multitude of other combustibles used by both sides during the Civil War. Most of these were made of paper or linen and were produced for such guns as Sharps, Merrill, Starr, Union, Gibbs, maynard, Colt, LeMat, Lindner, and others."
If you check any reference on Civil War ammunition, you will see that many rounds (Sharps among them) had odd looking powder tubes of paper, skin or gut containing the charge attached to the projectile with thread or glue.
The space in the chamber was obviously not an issue any more than it is when the base of a paper tube is sheared off and the loose powder falls into the cavity of the breech block.
These would seem to establish an historical precedent for the use of compressed propellant paper cartridges in breechloading arms of the Civil War era.
No one who can afford to own and shoot a Shiloh product can reasonably object to the cost of Pyrodex pellets in making up ammunition for a '63. None of these rifles are cheap to own and shoot in brass case ammunition either.
Until someone can tell me how to safely compress BP into pellets, I shall continue to use Pyro pellets in my '63 and feel both safe and historically correct.
TB
"From birth to the packing house, we travel between the two eternities ....." Robert Duvall in "Broken Trail"
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Todd Birch
- Posts: 2133
- Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2004 12:01 pm
- Location: Somewhere in the Cariboo ....
'63 flash
Kurt
You are quite right. Kirk warns '63 shooters not to pour loose powder into the chamber as it will eventually cause cavitation of the shear plate face.
In the Seller's book, mention is made of the fact that the British objected to the damage caused to expensive Victorian uniforms by the flash of powder leakage from the '55 pattern Sharps slant breech carbines they tested in .58 calibre.
There are documented reports of US troops complaing about the same thing caused by the excess powder accumulating in the spring recess and eventually igniting, causing damage to the fore stock.
It is impossible to get more than one 60 gr pellet into the chamber behind a bullet.
If one is going to tempt fate with human stupidity by loading more than one pellet and muzzleloading a bullet on top, then you have to accept the consequences. Nothing is fool proof in the hands of a fool.
This is why TC stopped producing their Hawken style MLs and went to heavier barreled rifles that could withstand the pressure of multiple pellets.
My lady owns one of these in .50 calibre and I shudder to think of the load it could handle. She's shooting 30 grs of FFFg and quite happy with it out to 50 yards.
I would think that the use of a 60 gr .54 calibre Pyro pellet in a .54 rifle would be a very mild, fun plinking load, ideal for women and kids.
I just acquired some 30 gr 44/45 pellets and I'm going to make up some paper rounds to use in my cap& ball revolvers using .452 RN bullets.
T
You are quite right. Kirk warns '63 shooters not to pour loose powder into the chamber as it will eventually cause cavitation of the shear plate face.
In the Seller's book, mention is made of the fact that the British objected to the damage caused to expensive Victorian uniforms by the flash of powder leakage from the '55 pattern Sharps slant breech carbines they tested in .58 calibre.
There are documented reports of US troops complaing about the same thing caused by the excess powder accumulating in the spring recess and eventually igniting, causing damage to the fore stock.
It is impossible to get more than one 60 gr pellet into the chamber behind a bullet.
If one is going to tempt fate with human stupidity by loading more than one pellet and muzzleloading a bullet on top, then you have to accept the consequences. Nothing is fool proof in the hands of a fool.
This is why TC stopped producing their Hawken style MLs and went to heavier barreled rifles that could withstand the pressure of multiple pellets.
My lady owns one of these in .50 calibre and I shudder to think of the load it could handle. She's shooting 30 grs of FFFg and quite happy with it out to 50 yards.
I would think that the use of a 60 gr .54 calibre Pyro pellet in a .54 rifle would be a very mild, fun plinking load, ideal for women and kids.
I just acquired some 30 gr 44/45 pellets and I'm going to make up some paper rounds to use in my cap& ball revolvers using .452 RN bullets.
T
"From birth to the packing house, we travel between the two eternities ....." Robert Duvall in "Broken Trail"
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Orville
- Posts: 2239
- Joined: Mon May 16, 2005 2:54 pm
- Location: Buffalo Wy
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Todd Birch
- Posts: 2133
- Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2004 12:01 pm
- Location: Somewhere in the Cariboo ....
combustible cartridges
Orville
Thanks for the reference. I have a copy of "Cartridges", a long out of print book by H.C. Logan. I got mine at an arms show.
He list and illustrates several combustible cartridges in calibres from .28 to .58 musket size.
All employed a compressed pellet of BP wrapped in paper, linen, skin or "collodion", "a substance prepared by dissolving guncotton in ether, or in a mixture of ether and alcohol, used as a substitute for adhesive plaster,..."
I believe that this mixture was used to bond BP into pellets along with mixtures of shellac.
Whew, I wonder how many of those loading plants went up! The fumes and explosive mixtures must have made it a high risk job. I don't think I'd like to mess with it on a casual basis.
I think it's only a matter of time before some maker offers us compressed BP in some form. If the demand is there, it will happen.
Last night a friend who wants to purchase my '47 Walker Dragoon put it through it's paces at 25 yards from a rest. He was shooting 55 grs of FFFg and a conical bullet wrapped in a rolling paper! Looked just like Colt's self contained paper cartridges.
He got 100% ignition and combustion in several cylinder loads, no sign of paper residue in any chambers. It produced a 2 1/2" 6 shot group.
He went on to pair it up with his Walker, one in each fist ala CAS "Gunfighter" style - very impressive!
TB
Thanks for the reference. I have a copy of "Cartridges", a long out of print book by H.C. Logan. I got mine at an arms show.
He list and illustrates several combustible cartridges in calibres from .28 to .58 musket size.
All employed a compressed pellet of BP wrapped in paper, linen, skin or "collodion", "a substance prepared by dissolving guncotton in ether, or in a mixture of ether and alcohol, used as a substitute for adhesive plaster,..."
I believe that this mixture was used to bond BP into pellets along with mixtures of shellac.
Whew, I wonder how many of those loading plants went up! The fumes and explosive mixtures must have made it a high risk job. I don't think I'd like to mess with it on a casual basis.
I think it's only a matter of time before some maker offers us compressed BP in some form. If the demand is there, it will happen.
Last night a friend who wants to purchase my '47 Walker Dragoon put it through it's paces at 25 yards from a rest. He was shooting 55 grs of FFFg and a conical bullet wrapped in a rolling paper! Looked just like Colt's self contained paper cartridges.
He got 100% ignition and combustion in several cylinder loads, no sign of paper residue in any chambers. It produced a 2 1/2" 6 shot group.
He went on to pair it up with his Walker, one in each fist ala CAS "Gunfighter" style - very impressive!
TB
"From birth to the packing house, we travel between the two eternities ....." Robert Duvall in "Broken Trail"