How to enhance 1863's no-holdover range?

Support for the 1863 shooter. Discussions of powders, loads, bullets, etc.
Post Reply
Naphtali
Posts: 176
Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2006 2:27 pm
Location: Seeley Lake, MT

How to enhance 1863's no-holdover range?

Post by Naphtali »

I live in Montana west of the divide. For elk I have been a muzzleloading flintlock hunter -- .65-caliber round ball (410 gr/150 gr FFg/1700-1800 ft-sec).

I am interested in extending my no-holdover range (plus/minus six inches from point of aim) from about 115 yards to about 150 yards. Having such a cone of fire compensates for inaccurate distance estimates. The reality is that I try to limit shots to about 85 yards, but Montana's air is so clear that distances may appear deceptively short -- hence, my safety margin for range estimation. The improvement I seek will allow me to accept shots I believe are as far away as 120 yards.

1. Can I achieve this goal with an 1863 rifle? I do not know whether an alloyed, solid base lead bullet can be given sufficient velocity to remain plus/minus six inches of my point of aim. I realize that a Sharps bullet will retain its velocity better than my RB, and that this will offset some reduction in velocity out the barrel. And I assume that alloyed bullets will deform at the base less severely than pure lead or Minié ball.

2. Kirk wrote me that Shiloh 1863s shoot most accurately with 50 grains of powder loaded via combustible cartridge. I suspect any cone of fire will be shorter regardless of bullet selection. Will relieving the chamber-barrel to allow bullet to engage the rifling while increasing powder capacity allow a method to increase an 1863's range to what I seek?

3. Since I am not a Sharps percussion shooter now, if I can achieve the result wanted by means other than my "brute force" technique, please inform me.

If I am unclear what I'm trying to do, let me know. I'll try to clarify. And if what I want to do is infeasible,
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him. Jonathan Swift
Rich Siegel
Posts: 610
Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2002 7:53 am
Location: Maine

Post by Rich Siegel »

I agree with Kirk that new production Shilohs shoot best with 50 grains of FFG Goex in a paper cartridge. (I'm going to try 53 grains of 1 1/2 Swiss this weekend to see if accuracy is any better) However, I know of some men who shoot the 54 carbine using a plastic tube to load from and wittout the paper cartridge, can get more powder into the chamber. I also owned a 1980's vintage Shiloh rifle that would hold a paper cartridge with over 70 grains of FFG.

All this being said, shooting a 450 to 490 grain ringtail, tapered bullet, I don't think you can obtain the trajectory you want. Maybe with a lighter bullet or a smaller caliber (45 or 50) you might come close but I doubt it.

With my carbine, that has an after market taller front sight, I shoot dead on at 50 yards with the ladder sight up and the slide at the bottom but need to raise the rear ladder sight about 1/8" to shoot on at 100 yards. That's the longest range I shoot the carbine at.

Rich
HvyMtl
Posts: 256
Joined: Tue May 25, 2004 6:44 pm
Location: Soviet state of New Jersey

1859/1863:

Post by HvyMtl »

I have an 1859 Ped. Sharps paper cartridge rifle that I do not use paper cartridges in. I drop the bullets in followed by the powder, which is about 80 gr. of Clean shot. I usually shoot a Lyman mini which weighs 430 gr. I hold at 6:00 at fifty yards and dead on at 100yds. At 200 yds. I have the barrel sight in the up position with the slide at the very bottom and it seems to shoot dead on just above the sight plane. I don't think the drop is more than 6" between 50 yds,. and 100 yds. but i've never really paid all that much attention to it because the rifle always hits what i'm aiming at.

I haven't hunted much with the rifle because we can't use them in the Soviet State of N.J. but I have shot it a lot so if I did get to hunt with it more often I would have all the confidence needed.
Naphtali
Posts: 176
Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2006 2:27 pm
Location: Seeley Lake, MT

Post by Naphtali »

I admit it. I'm confused. The physical mechanism of the 1863 will safely accept essentially any load I might consider. Cartridge versions have used safely metallic cartridge loads as heavy as .50/140/700, and this is a circa 1880s loading.

So where the problem lies must be in how efficiently a percussion cap lock Sharps uses a loose load?

1. From a clean action whose chamber will accept it, why would not a .54/110/475 percussion rifle be as consistent and accurate as the same load fired from a metallic cartridge Sharps of the same chambering?

I expect gas leakage that does not occur in metallic cartridge rifles, but this would be uniform from shot to shot were the action clean. And accuracy is a function of uniformity.

To enhance uniformity, I suspect a bullet need be harder than pure lead or paper patched. Forcing the bullet base to engage rifling maintains uniform bullet alignment.

2. I suspect maintaining uniformity is more difficult with non-metallic cartridges because of black powder fouling the action.

But I'm confused again. What is the difference between shooting a 50 or 60 grain powder charge ten times without cleaning and shooting a comparable amount of powder -- larger charges -- in fewer loads between cleaning? If cleaning ordinarily occurs having fired fewer shots, that's okay. The confusion regarding total fouling vs. total fouling remains valid, I think.
***
A. The procedure I envision is to finger start a bullet. Using something similar in function to a ML short starter, seat the bullet in rifling with one effort. The short starter would include a stop so that depth of bullet seating would be uniform.

B. Powder charge is a combustible cartridge. Tear off one end and insert, torn end out.

C. Cap then shoot.
***
If a major reason this procedure will not achieve my intended result is powder fouling, would changing propellant from black powder to a black powder substitute reduce the fouling to "acceptable?"

Since what I'm trying to do pertains to hunting, the number of shots between cleaning, in the field, would be fewer than four. When shooting at a range, cleaning the action and barrel would be no more inconvenience than when shooting standard 50-60 grain loads.

Like I wrote earlier, I'm confused.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him. Jonathan Swift
HvyMtl
Posts: 256
Joined: Tue May 25, 2004 6:44 pm
Location: Soviet state of New Jersey

Hold over ?

Post by HvyMtl »

We will try and end your confusion, as per my above post I don't hold over. I use a BP sub. called CleanShot. I have shot as many as 10 shots consecutivly with no cleaning and had good accuracy, 9 out of 10 shots all being in the 10 ring at 100 yds. I used the Lyman mini at that shoot I believe made of a 20-1 mix, and using bore butter as a lube.

When I drop the bullet in it ends up seated into the rifleing and when I pour the powder in there is no air space as the Ped. 1859 has no hollow space in the block like the 1863 Shiloh does. Although this charge is not compressed it is filled up to its maximum limit.

From what i've heard about the Berdan shooters they did make shots out to 600yds. with their paper cartridge rifles but your talking about wartime not hunting.

Hope this helps

Ken
Naphtali
Posts: 176
Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2006 2:27 pm
Location: Seeley Lake, MT

HvyMtl

Post by Naphtali »

Ken:

Since there are basic design differences between your Pedersoli and a Shiloh, do they account for your ability to shoot many shots, relatively large powder charges, loaded loose. This is nearly a mirror image of what Kirk wrote to me.
********Kirk's reply follows********
Hi, using loose powder can be done, it will just cause premature gas plate wear, proper paper cartridges should be used, ones that don't need the gas plate to cut the tail off, this causes wear also. These rifles shoot the best with around 50 grains of ffg, you aren't going to gain much by forcing the bullet anywhere. If you care for the gun proper you will not need extra gas plates. Thanks Kirk
********end Kirk's reply**********
You wrote that there is no space behind Pedersoli's action-reaction plate. Does this mean that the plate does not "react" to gas pressure -- that is, it doesn't move forward to seal the rear of the chamber?
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him. Jonathan Swift
HvyMtl
Posts: 256
Joined: Tue May 25, 2004 6:44 pm
Location: Soviet state of New Jersey

1863:

Post by HvyMtl »

The Ped. does not have a gas plate or hollow area on the block, instead it has a cylinder that slides out of the breech to seal it. I have had no trouble with its ability to seal. I have not been able to shoot my Farmer. 1863 due to a bullet size problem which I am working on. I think the Farmer. gas seal system is more efficent than the Ped. however the fact that there is no hollow area on the block of the Ped. is also nice.

I can't understand the so called problem with shooting the rifles without making paper cartridges. If the paper cartridges were made long enough for the block to cut them off like they are supposed to then you end up with loose powder just as though you poured the powder in without makeing paper patches. I mean the block or gas seal area is exposed to the powder and or the hot gases when the trigger is pulled, or am I missing something ?

Ken
Todd Birch
Posts: 2133
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2004 12:01 pm
Location: Somewhere in the Cariboo ....

loose powder in '63s

Post by Todd Birch »

Ken

One way of using paper cartridges is to compress the round with a short starter so that the breech block will not shear off the base of the paper.

Then punch a hole in the base of the cartridge with an awl to aid ignition.

If you were using nitrated paper or cloth wraps, this last step might not be necessary.

With my 60 gr .54 calibre Pyrodex pellet loads in my .50 '63 Military, I either tear off the paper to expose the base of the pellet or puncture it with an awl.

A man's gotta do what a man's gotta do....


Todd
"From birth to the packing house, we travel between the two eternities ....." Robert Duvall in "Broken Trail"
HvyMtl
Posts: 256
Joined: Tue May 25, 2004 6:44 pm
Location: Soviet state of New Jersey

Punching holes:

Post by HvyMtl »

Roger that Todd,

But I think you'll find out that you don't have to punch any holes with the 54. On the rare occasion when I do make paper cartridges I cut the ends into 1/4"s and fold them over and glue them, so it ends up being four layers thick. At first I would also punch a hole in the end but a couple of times I forgot and the rifle still went off so I stopped punching the holes.

Ken
dm3280
Posts: 550
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2003 6:11 pm

cartridges

Post by dm3280 »

I have found a method that works great for me and I loose no powder nor do I have to punch a hole or tear the end. I get complete burn of the paper cartridge and have yet to have any ignition problems.
I make the paper cartridge out of tracing paper. I cut a rectangle 1 7/8 x 3 inches. This will give me a double wrap around a dowel I made to fit the base of the bullet. I use to use nitrate paper but found bits of paper still lingering in the chamber after each shot. The tracing paper leaves nothing behind and is not nitrated, just paper cut to shape. I glue with a glue stick.
Once the tube is made I take 1/2 sheet of cig paper and form over the end of another dowel that is smalled than the inside of the paper tube. This forms a paper cup on the end of the dowel. I push the paper cup through the tube to the opposite end. Before I get all the way I spread some glue on the inside edge of the tub then push the paper cup flush with the end. Remove the dowel and you have a paper tube with cig paper covering one end. I fill with powder, usually 50 grains ff. On top of that I place a card wad, same ones I use for my 45-70. I fill the rest of the tube with a filler like corn meal or cream of wheat leaving just enough room to glue the bullet in the tube.

I have found that using a drop tube or tapping the paper cartridge on the table helps settle powder and filler to the point of making a nice solid cartridge.

If made to the correct length I can push the completed cartridge into the chamber using thumb pressure to seat the whole thing and close the gun up. No paper is torn off. If I am hunting I can remove the cap, open the gun and drop a rod into the barrel to get the load out that can be used again later.

I did have a carbine that had problems with ignition. I do not recall where I purchased it but I bought a nipple with a larger flash hole and that solved the problem.

The rifle I have shoots better with paper cartridges, not sure why. Last time out I was able to shoot a 3 inch group at 100 yards from sandbags. The load was 50 gr ff Goex. I tried 55 grains but the group opened up to 4 inches. Both times I was using a Rapine ringtail bullet cast with 30:1 lead.

Someone posted a method he used to determine the correct paper to use. He would take a sheet of different paper, cut to the desired pattern and either nitrate it or not. Then he took each type and lite it with a match. He then looked at what residue was left after it burned up. I did the same test with different paper I had around and found straight tracing paper burned the cleanist. The thicker nitrated paper I did use left the most residue.
dm3280
Posts: 550
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2003 6:11 pm

hold over

Post by dm3280 »

I went back to my notes and here is what I have for my 1863 military rifle. Shooting a Rapine ringtail bullet over 55 grains ff Goex with a bullet weight of 473 grs I tested the load through a Oehler Chrono. I was also shooting paper cartridges not loose powder. The average velocity was 842 fps. Putting the information into my ballistic software I come up with a bullet drop in inches with a zero at 100 yards of 6.07 inches high at 50 yards. If you keep your shot from 50 to 100 yards you will stay close to your 6 inch limit.
Another more accurate load was 50 grains. I have not run it through the ballistic software but I get an average velocity of 803 fps. I have not chronoed any loads heavier than that but this should give you an idea of what to expect. I would guess with a load of 60 - 70 grains the bullet path would be well under your 6 inch goal from 50 to 100 yards.
I doubt I would hunt elk with a light load of 50 grains but would have to try heavier loads where I get acceptable accuracy.
dm3280
Posts: 550
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2003 6:11 pm

hold over

Post by dm3280 »

I forgot to mention that with a load of 50 grains I was able to shoot a 3 inch group at 100 yards. When I jumped the powder up to 55 grains the group went to 4 inches. Now I cannot blame it all on the load increase since I am shooting open sights and my eyes are not as good as they use to be.

Hope this helps
HvyMtl
Posts: 256
Joined: Tue May 25, 2004 6:44 pm
Location: Soviet state of New Jersey

Hold over:

Post by HvyMtl »

dm3280,

Do you use a filler because my Ped.59 holds about 80 gr. of ff using lose powder. I don't usually make paper cartridges I just drop the bullet in followed by the powder, which I fill to the very top of the breech. There is no hollow area on the Ped. block like there is on the Shiloh not that it matters because I have shot the Farmer. Shiloh the same way. At 100 yds. I have had groups of 1 MOA on a good day. The Ped. is a very accurate rifle up to 100-125 yds. Although I did shoot it at 200 yds. once and the first two shots were less than one inch apart. I use Clean Shot in it with Bore Butter because it likes it best.

Ken

P.S. Although I have never hunted Elk as yet I think these rifles would put them down but I wouldn't try shooting one at more than 100-125 yds. but thats because thats the distance I usually practice at and don't forget I shoot the Ped. with about 80 gr. of Goex FF powder.
dm3280
Posts: 550
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2003 6:11 pm

hold over

Post by dm3280 »

When using a paper cartridge and small powder amounts I have tried corn meal and cream of wheat as a filler. I cannot tell any difference between the two. If I am shooting loose powder I just drop the bullet into the chamber, use a dowel rod to seat it then drop in the powder. With loose powder I have shot 50 grains all the way up to filling the chamber. If you are concerend with empty air space which we have all been told is a big no no in muzzleloading then don't be afraid of it here. I asked Kirk a few years ago about it and he said not to worry, these guns are designed to handle it.
I recall reading somewhere that the aurthor had tried to blow up a gun with an empty space between the bullet and the powder. He was only able to create a problem with a percussion. He could not get a flintlock to have problems. I think the Sharps is like a flintlock. When the powder is ignited there is an escape for the gas until the pressure builds and by that time the bullet is already starting to move. A percussion rifle is sealed when the hammer is dropped and the exapnding gas has no where to go. With a bullet in the way the gun can have problems. That is just my opnion and I do not recall where I read it. I do know that Kirk said that using a light load with a Sharps will not create a problem. He even states that 50 grains is usually the more accurate. In a paper cartridge or loose there will always be dead space between the powder and bullet.
Post Reply