brass vs paper

Support for the 1863 shooter. Discussions of powders, loads, bullets, etc.
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sasza1983
Posts: 20
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:52 am

brass vs paper

Post by sasza1983 »

Hi,
I'm a new member so to start things up I'd like to say HI.

I do not have a Sharps rifle yet, but I'm ordering 1863 model from Pedersoli. I'm hoping to get it soon :)

I was just wondering about the difference between using brass cases and paper bullets. My main concern is whether there is any difference in velocity of a bullet. I guess that 1874 Sharps achieve better results due to the whole system being more airtight(not sure whether I used the right word; I'm not American 8). Well, you're using cartridge case that is sealed from the back.

Here in 1863 it works a bit differently, so how does brass compares to paper?

Thanks
sasza1983
Posts: 20
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:52 am

Post by sasza1983 »

Oh, one more thing. If I'm going to use brass cases like those in here http://www.possibleshop.com/sharps-rifle.htm (for pedersoli sharps) do I need a special mould for bullets with ring tail?
If I wanted to get such mould http://www.trackofthewolf.com/(S(2ygfgw45u4xnjqepyzd4fkrr))/categories/PARTDETAIL.ASPX?CATID=2&SUBID=190&STYLEID=922&PARTNUM=LYMAN-457-658 is the bullet going to fit this brass case or not??

Thanks
Rich Siegel
Posts: 610
Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2002 7:53 am
Location: Maine

Post by Rich Siegel »

I'm still confused about the brass cases for the '63 Sharps. Since the rifle is not designed to shoot brass cases, the action has no extractor. Unless you use a cleaning rod to punch out the case after each shot from the front of the barrel, how do you get the brass case out?

My suggestion would be to stick to paper cartridges (look through old postings on this board to see how to make the paper cartridges) or load bullet and powder loose. Bill Goodwin just posted an excellent message on the "shooter to shooter" board about shooting his 50 cal. with loose bullet and powder.

Good luck.

Rich
sasza1983
Posts: 20
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:52 am

Post by sasza1983 »

ooops double
Last edited by sasza1983 on Thu Sep 27, 2007 10:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
sasza1983
Posts: 20
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:52 am

Post by sasza1983 »

I heard people extract the case with a tool that has a hook at the end which you simply move through the hole and pull the case out. I'd rather use paper bullets, but I heard pedersoli recently started doing rifles that are meant to be shoot with brass cases. In order to use paper cartridges you need to change a steel plate(sorry don't know what it's called in english; but it is supposed to be different for paper bullets); at least this is what I heard...
The one for paper should look like this http://img154.imageshack.us/my.php?imag ... ek4cd9.jpg

And here are the photos of what it actually looks(somewhere in the middle of the page):
http://bron.iweb.pl/viewtopic.php?t=155 ... &start=270


Or am I missing something?
Todd Birch
Posts: 2133
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2004 12:01 pm
Location: Somewhere in the Cariboo ....

brass vs paper

Post by Todd Birch »

Sasza 1983

Quite simply put - if you want to shoot brass cartridges, buy a 50-70 or 45-70 Sharps.
A friend tried the Ped brass inserts you mention and they had to be trimmed to fit the chamber.

There were any number of paper/linen/skin/gauze cartridges in the era that worked quite well and they still do. Experiment, it's half the fun!

If you buy a .50 calibre '63 percussion rifle, I can recommend rolling a .54 calibre 60 gr. Pyrodex pellet with a sized, lubed bullet. It looks and handles like an original round and while it isn't BP, it certainly is convenient and shoots well.

The Gallagher and other rifles of the era did use brass cases, but they were designed for such specific use. With a '63 Sharps, feed it what liked then and still does.

Todd
"From birth to the packing house, we travel between the two eternities ....." Robert Duvall in "Broken Trail"
sasza1983
Posts: 20
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:52 am

Post by sasza1983 »

Hi,
The problem is that in Poland we can have replicas of rifles that were patented before 1850, so 45-70 is out of range. And forget about getting gun licence here:cry:. First you would have to be shot twice and stabbed 13 times before they even start thinking about allowing you to have a gun.

I want to use paper cartridges but people say you need to adjust the gun to use them, as I mentioned earlier and gave the links, that's why im concerned...

Regards
Todd Birch
Posts: 2133
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2004 12:01 pm
Location: Somewhere in the Cariboo ....

paper vs brass

Post by Todd Birch »

Sasza

Paper or brass cartridges, the load must be tailored to the rifle in question.

Do the research, use paper and make your life simple. The bullet can be flat based, have the Sharps 'ring tail', whatever ......

Have fun!

Todd
"From birth to the packing house, we travel between the two eternities ....." Robert Duvall in "Broken Trail"
sasza1983
Posts: 20
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:52 am

Post by sasza1983 »

ok, thanks. People freaked me out saying I won't be able to shoot paper cartidges unless I'll have the gun altered by a gunsmith... :?

I didn't know why is that...I guess they're wrong 8)
sasza1983
Posts: 20
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:52 am

Post by sasza1983 »

I've just received information that my rifle from Pedersoli is about to be shipped to me. I was wondering about the mould that I should use. I checked Track and LEE molds: http://www.trackofthewolf.com/(S(hlf4gj33qnhje5qmycsa24qb))/categories/partList.aspx?catID=18&subID=126&styleID=981.
I'm going to shoot probably not more than 100yards. I guess the more heavier the bullet is the better it will work with longer distances, but is there any point in using 500grain bullet on 100yards? I'm confused and not really sure whether I should get 340, 405 or 500 grain bullet mould. So far I've been shooting Hawken rifle and Colt Dragoon and used balls in both so I do not have any practice in using bullets.
8) :D
Regards
Todd Birch
Posts: 2133
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2004 12:01 pm
Location: Somewhere in the Cariboo ....

bullet type

Post by Todd Birch »

Sasza

Ultimately, the rifle will decide which bullet weight it prefers. Get at least two and experiment.
Or simply get the traditional Sharps 'Christmas Tree' ring tail bullet design and live with it.

You are still going to have to try different powder charges regardless and let that determine what you need for 100 yard paper punching.

With any of the '63s, cleaning after firing is critical. Your Pedersoli will have a different gas seal than the Shiloh product, so do whatchagodda do to keep it clean.

For your cartridges, my experience with nitrated paper is that it isn't worth the extra bother. Use a lightweight 'onion skin' tube formed around a wooden mandrel. Alternately, roll a lubed bullet in a paper, charge with powder and twist the ends.
You can do this to suit chamber length or let the 'cigar cutter' trim off the end.

I also form paper tubes with a tissue base glued in and friction fit the bullet. The lube holds the bullet in place.

Todd
"From birth to the packing house, we travel between the two eternities ....." Robert Duvall in "Broken Trail"
sasza1983
Posts: 20
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:52 am

Post by sasza1983 »

Thanks for the information. I guess I'll try with three different moulds and we'll see how it performs. 8)
sasza1983
Posts: 20
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:52 am

Post by sasza1983 »

By the way, has anyone tried LEE-90577 bullet mould. It's a .459 500 grain bullet. I was wondering whether anyone had any experience with it.
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