original sharps 45-110 and Paper Patched Bullets
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Krems,
I've done a fair amount of paper patching. Some things I've learned are: Don't matter which way (direction) you wrap, dry wrapping is better than wet, and bore size is always better than anything else. Lube cookies vary in length from .125 to .425, your type of shooting will dictate where you fall in that range. Soft lead and low velocity works best for me. 1000 to 1100 will yield 1.5 MOA and better at most any range.
TL
I've done a fair amount of paper patching. Some things I've learned are: Don't matter which way (direction) you wrap, dry wrapping is better than wet, and bore size is always better than anything else. Lube cookies vary in length from .125 to .425, your type of shooting will dictate where you fall in that range. Soft lead and low velocity works best for me. 1000 to 1100 will yield 1.5 MOA and better at most any range.
TL
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paper
Timberlake,
When you say "Bore size" do you mean the bullet is bore size beofe adding paper, or the total diameter with paper is bore size?
Omak
When you say "Bore size" do you mean the bullet is bore size beofe adding paper, or the total diameter with paper is bore size?
Omak
THIS SPACE FOR RENT
RIFLE:
45 - 70 #1 Sporter, shotgun buttplate, bone charcoal, 28 inch heavy octagon, semi fancy wood, pewter tip, MVA soule sights. 11 lbs, 10 1/2 ounces.
RIFLE:
45 - 70 #1 Sporter, shotgun buttplate, bone charcoal, 28 inch heavy octagon, semi fancy wood, pewter tip, MVA soule sights. 11 lbs, 10 1/2 ounces.
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Paper
Thanks, TL
Omak
Omak
THIS SPACE FOR RENT
RIFLE:
45 - 70 #1 Sporter, shotgun buttplate, bone charcoal, 28 inch heavy octagon, semi fancy wood, pewter tip, MVA soule sights. 11 lbs, 10 1/2 ounces.
RIFLE:
45 - 70 #1 Sporter, shotgun buttplate, bone charcoal, 28 inch heavy octagon, semi fancy wood, pewter tip, MVA soule sights. 11 lbs, 10 1/2 ounces.
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Hello,
Just got back from the range today. The 45/110 shot good w/ grease groove bullets. 10 shot group was 3-3 1/2 inches at 100 yards w/ open sights and swiss 1f. Tried the PP bullets again w/ poor results.
I may have just figured out why the chamber dimensions seemed off. (I can chamber a 3.00 inch case) The factory letter states that "the rifle was shipped to Hartley & Graham in NY then returned to the Sharps factory the next year for rechambering (presumeably in 45 caliber the letter states) then shipped back to Meacham in St. Louis. " I took a magnifying glass to the caliber case length stamping and it looks like it was restamped to 2 7/8". The rifle may have been a 45 2 1/10" sporting rifle to begin with. the "7" looks right but it almost looks like a "10" under the "8". Who knows!... Still a nice rifle and I'll get this to shoot w/ PPatch bullets eventually.
Thanks for all the suggestions.....Krems
Just got back from the range today. The 45/110 shot good w/ grease groove bullets. 10 shot group was 3-3 1/2 inches at 100 yards w/ open sights and swiss 1f. Tried the PP bullets again w/ poor results.
I may have just figured out why the chamber dimensions seemed off. (I can chamber a 3.00 inch case) The factory letter states that "the rifle was shipped to Hartley & Graham in NY then returned to the Sharps factory the next year for rechambering (presumeably in 45 caliber the letter states) then shipped back to Meacham in St. Louis. " I took a magnifying glass to the caliber case length stamping and it looks like it was restamped to 2 7/8". The rifle may have been a 45 2 1/10" sporting rifle to begin with. the "7" looks right but it almost looks like a "10" under the "8". Who knows!... Still a nice rifle and I'll get this to shoot w/ PPatch bullets eventually.
Thanks for all the suggestions.....Krems
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Will it accept a case longer than 3.00". Maybe it is a 45 3 1/4" rechamber. Maybe Sharps re did it to 45 2 7/8 and then Meecham re cut it to 45-120.
a properly chambered 45-110 should not accept a 3" case. I am fighting with a 45-70 right now that has a chamber about 2.165" . PP bullets didn't do well (got flyers) until I custom made some cases for the chamber cut down from some new norma 45-110 brass and then reamed the inside neck area as the brass was too thick after cutting back so much of it.
Once you know the length of the chamber you might try making some custom cases for it like I did. Think about it in your rifle upon firing at least part of the bullet obturates to chamber diameter, then swages down to throat diameter then swages don to groove and bore diameter, That is a lot of abuse for a PP bullet.
Good luck
a properly chambered 45-110 should not accept a 3" case. I am fighting with a 45-70 right now that has a chamber about 2.165" . PP bullets didn't do well (got flyers) until I custom made some cases for the chamber cut down from some new norma 45-110 brass and then reamed the inside neck area as the brass was too thick after cutting back so much of it.
Once you know the length of the chamber you might try making some custom cases for it like I did. Think about it in your rifle upon firing at least part of the bullet obturates to chamber diameter, then swages down to throat diameter then swages don to groove and bore diameter, That is a lot of abuse for a PP bullet.
Good luck
" I would rather die on my feet than live on my knees"
- Ken Hartlein
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I shot the PP bullets and here are the results. I was shooting off an old kitchen table and lawn chair hauled to the NF. I was using a table rest of my own making and the wind was gusting from 7-8 oclock. The first batch were loaded with .030 wads, .125 lube cookie, 65 grains of FFg (2F) and COL was 3.070. After the first one I couldn't load anymore without undue pushing so I quit on these. The 2nd batch had 65 grains of FFFg (3F) goex and the same wads and bullet, only these were loaded to 3.050 COL. These shot fine, I was shooting at only 25 yards, got a 1 1/2 group with the open barrel sights that came with the rifle. Without the wind and with some better sights on I think these would group pretty well. The bullets came from Montanna Bullet Works. They are tapered, from .458 at the base up to .445 where the paper stops. This is with paper on. They are pure lead and weigh 550 grains just like a lot of the originals. I have a casting of my chamber and the chamber is exactely 2.100 inches. I got the brass I used on these loads from a friend and I should have checked a lot closer!! After I shot them I measured them and they are 2.065 inches!! I'm throwing them away!!
Shiloh Rules!!
Republic of Texas Shiloh Hunter
Republic of Texas Shiloh Hunter
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Rick,
I do not have any longer cases than the Norma brass. I don't think I'll be able to load a case longer than 3" in this sharps rifle. I began to wonder if the rifle was a 45-120 myself. I loaded a round w/ a wooden dowell to 3.25" and turned the dowell to the case dimensions just to see if it would chamber. It went in just slightly over 3"....still an oddball chamber. Shoots good w/ grease groove bullets but I bought it to shoot the PP bullets. This will be a good winter project to get this one to shoot.
Krems
I do not have any longer cases than the Norma brass. I don't think I'll be able to load a case longer than 3" in this sharps rifle. I began to wonder if the rifle was a 45-120 myself. I loaded a round w/ a wooden dowell to 3.25" and turned the dowell to the case dimensions just to see if it would chamber. It went in just slightly over 3"....still an oddball chamber. Shoots good w/ grease groove bullets but I bought it to shoot the PP bullets. This will be a good winter project to get this one to shoot.
Krems
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krems,
You need to get a chamber casting. No doubt about it! Cast it up into the bore a ways to see what you have for bore and land diameters as well.
If you have a tapered throat, you can shoot either bore diameter or groove diameter bullets (as measured after patching). I cannot prove any difference in accuracy and I have spent quite a bit of time trying.
Also, please pick up some patches when you shoot. Start with the first shot. Compare that to the next one and the next and for at least the number of shots you use for each group (I use 5). There will be something to learn from these. If you can photo or scan them and post them, that will help. Note the patch on one of my webpages ([url]http://www.iastate.edu/~codi/PPB/PPB.html[/url]) about paper patching - this is what you hope to see, because that tells you a lot about the problem.
Do you wipe, blow tube, or do anything between shots! What is your paper?
Brent
PS. Someone asked why use paper patches at all? The answers are easy. They look good! They don't lead. They let you shoot pure lead if you wish (not necessary though). They provide an instant ticker-tape parade to celebrate every shot. And, oh yes, THEY LOOK GOOD!. Those first and last points are particularly important. Besides, anyone can make grease grooves shoot :)
You need to get a chamber casting. No doubt about it! Cast it up into the bore a ways to see what you have for bore and land diameters as well.
If you have a tapered throat, you can shoot either bore diameter or groove diameter bullets (as measured after patching). I cannot prove any difference in accuracy and I have spent quite a bit of time trying.
Also, please pick up some patches when you shoot. Start with the first shot. Compare that to the next one and the next and for at least the number of shots you use for each group (I use 5). There will be something to learn from these. If you can photo or scan them and post them, that will help. Note the patch on one of my webpages ([url]http://www.iastate.edu/~codi/PPB/PPB.html[/url]) about paper patching - this is what you hope to see, because that tells you a lot about the problem.
Do you wipe, blow tube, or do anything between shots! What is your paper?
Brent
PS. Someone asked why use paper patches at all? The answers are easy. They look good! They don't lead. They let you shoot pure lead if you wish (not necessary though). They provide an instant ticker-tape parade to celebrate every shot. And, oh yes, THEY LOOK GOOD!. Those first and last points are particularly important. Besides, anyone can make grease grooves shoot :)
- Ken Hartlein
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So today people shoot PPBs for the "coolness" factor. Which is a valid reason.
But what was the original reason it was used, I just don't think "coolness" was it.
I can think of only three possible reasons:
1. To reduce leading. Was the leading that bad? Were alloyed bullets not available in 1874?
2. To compensate for inconsistent chamber and barrel diameter. Was the early machining that inconsistent between rifles?
3. Were the PPBs an ancient, limited, ancestor of the Sabot? Or, is this just too off the wall to be considered?
Why would a guy living off his Rifle and busting his butt to stay alive on a day by day basis - spend time to PPB ?
Any ideas?
Hal
But what was the original reason it was used, I just don't think "coolness" was it.
I can think of only three possible reasons:
1. To reduce leading. Was the leading that bad? Were alloyed bullets not available in 1874?
2. To compensate for inconsistent chamber and barrel diameter. Was the early machining that inconsistent between rifles?
3. Were the PPBs an ancient, limited, ancestor of the Sabot? Or, is this just too off the wall to be considered?
Why would a guy living off his Rifle and busting his butt to stay alive on a day by day basis - spend time to PPB ?
Any ideas?
Hal
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[quote="Canoe112"]Why would a guy living off his Rifle and busting his butt to stay alive on a day by day basis - spend time to PPB ?
Any ideas?
Hal[/quote]
Hal, because the time to make ppbs is WAY overrated. They stay a bit tidier than grease grooves. You don't have to melt lead to make a PPB if you have a hammer swage in your wagon (and they did). You don't have to pan lube or the equivalent. And they might be a bit better for shooting pure lead.
AND,
it is my personal belief that buffalo hunters did, indeed, have an ego enough that they certainly DID want to look cool :).
Brent
Any ideas?
Hal[/quote]
Hal, because the time to make ppbs is WAY overrated. They stay a bit tidier than grease grooves. You don't have to melt lead to make a PPB if you have a hammer swage in your wagon (and they did). You don't have to pan lube or the equivalent. And they might be a bit better for shooting pure lead.
AND,
it is my personal belief that buffalo hunters did, indeed, have an ego enough that they certainly DID want to look cool :).
Brent