45-120 and 50-140 ???

[Hidehunter]

Kenny - You've got a lot of experience with BPCR loads. What is your take on the use of antelope skin as a bullet patch?

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Hidehunter,

I have skined a antelope or two, its thin hide for dang sure the dang things stink so bad to my nose. Would it be usable for patches? I dont know, I just got out my copy of Mayer's account and found the antelope skin thing, its on page 56. I seem to recall another account of this method and they mention Intestines for the patching material. That might work fine as this tissue was often used for condoms at one time also.

Mayer makes it quite clear that he handloaded his ammo to save money. I do know that one could buy patched bullets. The Sharps catalogs do list a 120 gr powder measure, but of course also mention that, this ammount of powder could be put in the 2 7/8ths case. I dont know why Mayer would go to the expense of buying his slugs but then have to find material to patch them him self?

Just another part of that story that sort of muddies the waters. Sad thing I think in some aspects Roth might of done more damage to Mayer's Rep then anything else?

Kenny Wasserburger

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Hidehunter,

One thing I should mention, and here is where I disagree with Mayer, I have shot about 50 to 70 rounds of PP bullets all in the 45-110. I can get 2 to 3 of them to shoot a good group at 100 yards but the rest tend to stray a bit.

In my opinion Grease Grove bullets are much more accurate. Todays best long Range Shooters use only GG bullets and we shoot some incredable scores.

Mayer was working MOB Min of Buffalo. Where as we are attempting MOA and better. With some recent developments in 45-110 accuracy, between myself and Rdnck I dont think there is a PP bullet that will hold a candle to the accuracy level we are getting at this time.

Issues of neck tension and other things lead me to reach these conclusions.

One of the greatest Long Range Creedmoor shooters and a agent for the Sharps Rifle company, must of been on to something when he ordered those Borchardts in 45-110. One of his team mates shot a World Record score that was never equalled with one of these rifles.

I honestly dont think a buckskin patch would do the trick as well as paper.

Muzzle stuffers aside, as you well pointed out a patched ball and a patched slug are 2 way different critters.

Kenny Wasserburger

[Hidehunter]

As for antelope, I don't think they smell all bad[size=18][/size]that[size=12][/size]bad. But then I'm nutty enough to have dropped more than a few C-notes over the years on tags for speedgoats..

I've got a copy of "Encyclopedia of Buffalo Hunters and Skinners." (Shiloh stocks this book and I highly recommend it.) In it there are copies of receipts for supplies bought by buffalo hunters. Lots of lead, powder and primers were sold. For the most part the hunters must have cast their bullets in the field. Interestingly enough, paper was often sold along with the other loading supplies so it seems like they rolled their own patched bullets.

In a 1934 American Rifleman article Frank Mayer gives dimensions to make a pattern for cutting patch paper. He also gives detailed instruction on how to prepare the bullets. I'm sure if Mayer had more of a hand in the writing of "The Buffalo Harvest" things would be much clearer among those of us who are interested in the details.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Hidehunter,

Lot of folks from your part of the country, come out to my part of the country to kill them speedgoats. I have had the tenderloin out of one that was quite good. Shot not in season and laying down, a about daylight. It was skined where it lay and was washed liberaly with lots of fresh water. It was not bad.

But nothing I would Trade for a ribeye or a Prime Rib that I know what it ate, and picked out myself.

To me the beef and buffalo are just about the best meat one can get. Elk is good and Moose is better then elk in my opinion.

But Beef and Buffalo are the best.

Kenny Wasserburger

PS I had forgotten about Mayer's patching template and the other stuff.

Agreed that I wish he had more of ahand in the writting of that little book.

[rdnck]

Kenny, Hidehunter--I have the complete series of Mayer's articles that appeared in The American Rifleman in the 1930's. In them, he mentions both antelope intestines and "specially prepared antelope buckskin". What the preparation process was, he didn't say other than it was scraped real thin and dried.

I won't hazard an opinion on the buckskin, but it is definitely possible to use intestines in lieu of paper to patch a bullet for a cartridge rifle. I bought some sausage casings--intestine--from a packing house years ago, and tried it. It will work, but does not work as well as paper. This parallels Mayer's statement.

I have shot about 200 rounds of paper patch through my first 45-110. I shot 38 consecutive shots one day without wiping, using only a blow tube. The rifle shot in the neighborhood of a 9 inch group at 415 yards with the paper patch. The same rifle will hold 5 to 7 inches with a grooved Paul Jones Creedmoor at the same distance. The rifle is definitely Minute of Buffalo with paper patch, no question. There is also no question that it shoots consistently smaller groups with a grooved bullet.

Mjolnir, or Thor's Hammer shoots a grease grooved bullet so well that I have never shot a paper patched bullet in it, and I have no plans to do so. This is a Shiloh 45-110 that weighs 14 1/2 pounds, and it is simply a tack driver. It ain't broke, and I'm not gonna fix it until it is. Kenny is right, there is accuracy here in these rifles we haven't seen before, and it is with grease grooved bullets. Hope this helps, shoot straight, rdnck.

[Stan Koslow]

My take on Mayer by the writing is that he went to the Forts and got 45-70 cartridges and then pulled the lead and re-melt them. It was stated that he had no affection for the powder though. I believe he traded it for coffe, bacon ect.
I think the telling of the tape is about the scope(s). Someone may have some evidence to turn this fact up or down. (1) Who was selling them (Vollmer) and where. (There may be records) (2) who and how were the x-tra cross hairs purchased or made and how and whom installed them. Seems to me that this work is a little more sophisticated than a typical wrangler or runner would choose to bite off. I have not seen any of this information but it may be out there. Maybe not

[Stan Koslow]

Kenny, ONE LAST POINT
In no way do I see how typical buckskin can be used for a patched pill nor do I wish to infer it. I was speaking of the use in ML regarding Buckskin. It is my understanding that the mountain men spoke of the use of 'Hock hide'. (Before the Buff) Hair was slipped easily by soaking in pot ash.
I think if paper was around those boys back then would use it. But when you read Mayer he does not sound any different than the modern "gun nut". He might have had somthing that worked for him? He did seem to take some pride in his and his rifles ability.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Stan,

Points agreed on the buckskin thing. Also that Mayer was a true Crank. And yes he points out that he broke down the 45-70 stuff for trade and the lead.

One statement in the book, and its most damming, is the one of the 2000 made BUFF Sharps rifles. Accurate records of Sharps Production are pretty clear on a few things a bit over 6000 sporting models of the 1874 were made, that would, according to Mayer make the Buff model about 1/3 of the entire production of Sporting Models. There are not 2000 such rifles, records dont allow for it and the said rifles do no exist. More so in 3 1/4 chamberings. Something the Sharps factory never made. Ammo was not made until 1883-84 and the Sharps factory was out of business by then. And the great hunts were close to 2 years over.

A good record of Ammo shipments to To Fort Laramie show upward of 10,000 rounds a month of 45-2 7/8ths being shipped for more then a few months. I think that the 45-110 aka the 2 7/8ths sharps is the cartridge we are all talking about in these other references. Another thing that puzzles me is why Roth waited until Mayer died to publish this book?

In my Opinion the Roth fella did more damage to Mayer' Reputation then anything else.

At this present Time I have more 45-110 rounds down range then most folks will ever have. The Cartridge and the rifle's ablity to do what it does at ranges in excess of 1000 yards still are, just short of awesome. I have personaly fired a tad over 11,300 rounds out of my own 45-2 7/8ths with charges up to 114 grs of Fg powder.

As Hide Hunter pointed out, we will always have discourse on this subject as its got some laudable points and some that are just BS. The Fact remains that The poor man is no longer here to be able to defend his story.

Every few months someone comes up with a similar Question on this subject.

Kenny Wasserburger

[Stan Koslow]

Kenny,

You have hit the heel of the opposing argument. Don't take me wrong, there is no argument here to the worth of the 2.6 or 7/8. One interesting fact is that apparently the factory had a well published reputation that they would build for there client. How far over the edge, I don't know. Length , twist, you name it, everybody has there own view. We know someone had the idea of stretching that case as it did come along. I wonder if the factory ever had a request for the added length by a customer much earlier? Trial run? Did they trial the 2.6 7/8 and so on. I put my money on the horse that says they did. If so, was it just one rifle or a very limited run. Would those guns show upon the regular records? Maybe not. The case I think is where to look, not the rifle.
I persanaly agree that few individuals know the production run of a factory such as Mayor states. one they are not a party to. But that does not discount that he may have heard it from what he felt was a reliable source. Your right, there is a lot of dirt over the facts. The people are buried but the argument still lives.