Now what the hell? More questions....Please help

[Kelley O.Roos]

Oh, forgot, all my barrels aren't Kriegers, shoot a couple that are Douglas's and it's on a rifle I'm shooting now. So what's your theory on that Sometime's fire lapping has nothing to do with how the rifling is cut. Maybe we should start a new thread and on a different channel as I really don't want to play in your sand box, as your the expert here,and I don't want to spoil your playing field and your expert-tease

Kelley O.

[Capt. Call]

If this was about rebuilding a Big Block Ford I would know who is right but about this Fire Lapping--- I don't know Jack! On the other hand if I had just spent 3K or more on ANY gun be it a Shiloh or what have you and it Needed Fire Lapped---I would Know that I spent my money on the Wrong Gun!

[Kelley O.Roos]

Capt Call,

I'm going to post my thoughts on fire lapping, my onpinion only, right or wrong, on BPCR Silhouette on MSN.com, if anyone is interested. Fire lapping to me, has nothing to do with the interior of any makers barrels, the manufacter of the rifles, the method of rifling or the cost of the rifle.

Kelley O.

[Capt. Call]

KelleyO, I went over and read your Post. I now understand it better and where you are coming from. Is it for me?----Don't think so but the world is round and if it works for you----have at it. I am also sure that out there you will find an old problem gun and this maybe just what they need---like my old Trapdoor.

[RMulhern]

Hey Fingers

Fore ya make that barrel kinda akin to a "castrated hog runnin cross the field" hollering RUINT, RUINT, RUINT....by fire-lapping it......go to your local shootin store and buy a jar of J-B Compound! Put a .45 "used" BRONZE brush on your cleaning rod....take a patch and put some of the "goo" on the patch....work it into the patch good with your fingers....then wrap the patch around the brush and pull it back and forth through the bore "umpteen" times! Clean out with a patch when yo arm wears out....rest up....and go again! A loose patch....WON'T WORK! Gotta be tight!

It'll make that bore....."slicker than snotonadoorknob!!"

[Gunny]

Guy's I'm not getten mixed up with this firelapping, or the use of J B compound. But what this feller finger needs to do is when he asks for advice at least give it a try. What he is doing is shooting thru the fouling, and his problems are typicial fouling problems. He doesn't think he needs to use a blow tube in the winter in Oregon and he is dead wrong, hell you need to use a blow tube as means of controlling fouling when it's raining for crying out load. I don't care how wet and how cold it is without prober fouling management 7 or 8 shots is a damn good result before everything goes to hell in a hand basket. He can firelap if he wants to, but if he doesn't take some form of serious fouling management, either wiping between shots or using a blow tube, he can firelap that 45 caliber Pedersoli out to 60 caliber and its not going to help.

Gunny

[Smokin]

Gunny,

Amen. Fingers, believe the preceding. Before extreme measures, get and use a blow tube.

Smokin

[Tasmanian Rebel]

Fingers, I live in a very humid area like you but agree with Smokin and Gunny- you HAVE to use a blow tube to get these guns to shoot well. Regarding your fire-lapping question, there is a very informative article in the Fall 2003 issue of the Black Powder Cartridge news magazine by Bob Glodt who writes a section on each issue called The Reloading Bench. He echoes what Kenny said and I quote what he said,-"Lapping is not considered to be a do it yourself type of project. Also, two of the barrel makers I talked to said NEVER fire-lap a barrel. They told me that fire-lapping is very risky because you cannot control the process. Button rifled barrels( like Shiloh's) however, generally do not require lapping. With button rifling, the swage tapers to a ball that burnishes the barrel, smoothing out and removing the majority of the reamer marks. With cut rifled barrels some makers will hand lap the barrel again after rifling."

[IronSight]

I personally would not firelap a BP bore, especially from a high quality barrel manufacturer. It can be uncontrollable as mentioned. Of concern is the abrasive compound being 'peeled' away as the bullet is propelled towards the muzzle. This abrasive movement might be caused by inertia and/or gases leaking past the bullet. Bullet defects, obturation, and lube grooves might add to the problem. The net effect could be uneven burnishing and possibly slight deformation of the bore both lateral and radial.
Some people swear by firelapping and i beleive its problaby more effective with jacketet bullets which are more uniform, typically obturate less and have no bullet grooves. With cast BPCR bullets, I believe a successful firelap is a 'toss of the dice'.

Now, if i had a new extremely rough bore which did NOT RESPOND to normal breakin procedures, i might consider firelapping as a last resort. I would try hand lapping or firing a few jacketed bullets first.

Its been my experience that a rough bore CAN add to a little more fouling buildup and leading. A rough bore presensts more friction and a little added heat. These microscopic bore irregularities can catch and hold lead and fouling thereby resisting them from being blown out the muzzle.
Increasing blow tubing can control the fouling but the leading is another story.

[Coal Creek Davis]

Fire Lapping can be a quick and easy way to ruin a barrel (if done wrong). If done right it can be the best thing you can do to a barrel to improve accuracy. I have used a kit purchased from Neco (http://www.neconos.com/details2.htm) to lap several older Swedish Mausers, and a Bushmaster chrome lined barrel. In all cases the barrels shot smaller groups and were easier to clean. In the case of the Bushmaster in went from a 1.5 “ 5 shot group at 100 yards to shooting .75 inch groups. My son loves to use it to shoot prairie dogs out to 300 yards. Most custom barrel makers hand lap their barrels as a matter of course. I haven’t seen the Pedersoli in question here but I would bet in would shoot better after using NECO’s kit and following their instructions. The next barrel I’m going to lap is on a Lyman High Plains muzzleloader. It has never shot groups like I want and just looking down the bore at all the tool marks makes me think that I can’t do anything but good by lapping it. Now, Mr. (Itchy) Finger before you start to draw down on me. I’m not saying that the Pedersoli is a crappy rifle. You paid good money for yours and I’m sure you’re proud of it. There are a lot of shooters who get along just fine with them. To compare any of the Italian Sharps to the Shiloh is like comparing the average wine glass purchased at Wal-Mart to one made from the finest lead crystal, a Ford anything to a Lamborghini, I could go on but I think you get the point. There is no better Sharps than the Shiloh and there are few rifles that have ever been made that have or are made to a higher standard. Simply put they are the cream of the crop.

[fingers]

No harm no foul on the Pedersoli issue. You are right. All of you. It is compareing apples to oranges, custom rifle to production rifle. I do wonder where the differance lie sometimes... but lets not go into that again
No fire lapping for me. I've shot jacket bullets...somone mentioned that might help. I've shot several hundred rounds...so I would say it is broken in. I'm making a blow tube and will work on that. I do believe (subject to change when I learn something. ) that fouling is my issue. I have use all sorts of bp lube from spg to beeswax and crisco. I think my lube is good. I have dry fouling the last three or four inches or so of the barrel. It is a 32incer...if that makes differance in this discussion. I've use a blow tube before and didn't see much differance, but I will try again.

Next idea is a bullet with wider grease grooves. Any of you lads have any suggestions on this. Going to take the plunge and get all set up to cast my own. The mold...hmmm. I understand that Paul Jones is the best there is and his 540grn creedmoor seems to be prefered. NEI has one that that is called the Paul Jones Creedmore and of course you have the Lyman Postel. What is the words of wisdom on these. Which one might have the most lube area?

Thanks for the advice. I'm still big on the learning curve here.

I appologise to those who thought I was harsh in my reply on the Pedersoli issue. If I had the money, Shiloh would be my first choice. In time, I might trade up but for now????

[IronSight]

fingers,
You mentioned in your final post that you have tried a blow tube and it didn't seem to make much difference. Don't know if this is the problem or not but it's very important that you keep your blow tube as short as possible. When i first started shooting these things years ago, the blow tube made no difference. My first blow tube was way too long and most of the moisture condensed in the tube and not the barrel. If your blow tube is dripping when you remove it from the barrel, its probably too long.

[fingers]

I made a new blow tube and it is much shorter, the first was based on ergonomics this one is short and simple. I played with it after making it and I got moist air out the muzzle. I have high hopes!
I just got signed off on our clubs 300yrd range and hope to have some good results.

Thanks for your input.

[Omaha Poke]

Ironsight, I too have read that one should keep the blow tube as short as possible, and that is what I tried first. I made my tube four inches in length. In prone position, I just about got wore out either by draging the rifle back to where I could use the tube, or crawling forward to be able to use it. After each use, I would shake the tube out and it had moisture that flew out the end of the tube. I started to experiment with other lengths of tube, and now have a 10" tube that works every bit as well as the short one, and has no more nor any less condensation that is thrown from the tube when I shake it out.

The advantage of not having to change position, especially in hot weather more than makes up for the shorter tube. For one thing it gives me more time to blow, and I don't get overheated and start sweating onto my eyeglases like I did when having to flop around like a fish out of water just to be able to access the tube. Randy

[IronSight]

Omaha,
I measured my blow tube and its about 9 1/4" tip to tip (~7 1/4" to chamber). I tried using a 4 incher and also found it awkward to use as you point out. The 4 incher was more efficient but i settled on the above length as a compromise because of the comfort factor.

In cold weather, condensation starts forming as soon as the warm breath hits the cold tube..dripping will probably occur more in cold weather. I control this 'cold weather' tube condensation somewhat by keeping the tube warm inside my jacket when not in use.

As i recall my first tube was about 20+ inches which is why i was initially disillusioned with blow tubing.

I occasionally still see first timers at the range using way too long blow tubes even with all these BPCR forums we have around today.