Good afternoon everyone:
I have been building loads for 45/110 with Goex 1Fg and a case full weighed on my RCBS scale is 100grs. for the 525gr. postell and 101grs. for a 415gr. flat nosed bullet. My question to all on the forum is their much difference in the charge weight from actual to volumetric charge weight. I know tha the same caes will only take 67.5 grs. of Pyrodex of a weighed charge for the 525gr. postell bullets.All charges have been dropped from a 30" drop tube and .250" to .300" compression.is their much difference from actual weight to volumetric as both end up with a full case and know air space between card wad and bullet.I look forward to any input from shooters on the forum,Thanks.
Weighed load verses volume load 45/110
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Rob A.
- Posts: 37
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- Location: St. Albert Alberta Canada
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Outrider
- Posts: 31
- Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2004 9:30 pm
- Location: Allegan, MI
Rob A
I've not been loading black very long but I sat down one day and did some volume vs weight measurements. For what it's worth this is what I found (for 45-70 obviously)
Powder Goex FFg
volume 60 grn
weight 61.0 grn
Powder Goex FFg
volume 70 grn
weight 70.8 grn
Powder Swiss 1.5 Fg
volume 60.0 grn
weight 68.1 grn
Powder Swiss 1.5 Fg
volume 70 grn
weight 74.6 grn
Powder Pyrodex RS
volume 60 grn
weight 46.2 grn
Powder Pyrodex RS
volume 70 grn
weight 51.9 grn
I know that you're not interested in Pyrodex, but I thought it interesting the difference in vol/wt as compared to true black.
I've not been loading black very long but I sat down one day and did some volume vs weight measurements. For what it's worth this is what I found (for 45-70 obviously)
Powder Goex FFg
volume 60 grn
weight 61.0 grn
Powder Goex FFg
volume 70 grn
weight 70.8 grn
Powder Swiss 1.5 Fg
volume 60.0 grn
weight 68.1 grn
Powder Swiss 1.5 Fg
volume 70 grn
weight 74.6 grn
Powder Pyrodex RS
volume 60 grn
weight 46.2 grn
Powder Pyrodex RS
volume 70 grn
weight 51.9 grn
I know that you're not interested in Pyrodex, but I thought it interesting the difference in vol/wt as compared to true black.
Remember....We get the government that we deserve.
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Smokin
- Posts: 1216
- Joined: Sat Dec 21, 2002 11:47 am
- Location: Minnesota: Land of Loons, Lakes, and Lutefisk
The weight speaks volumes
Gentlemen,
There really is no such thing as weight measured by volume or volumes determined by weight. Volume is something that occupies space and is measured in cubic units such as inches or centimeters or quarts or liters... Weight is the effect of gravity on mass and is measured in other units such as grams or grains or pounds or scruples or drams... Some volumetric black powder measures are graduated to approximate weights, but it is only an approximation. Black powder granules are irregluar in shape, thus their orientation in a container can affect how many granules can be held in a given volume. This can easily be seen when one compares the volume of a gently filled case to one which has been filled via a drop tube. The granules dropped from a height will orient themselves into a smaller volume than the ones allowed to more loosely pack themselves. Now add enough more powder to fill the case where the charge was drop-tubed and weigh that charge. The powder in that case will weigh more even though it is occupying the same volume.
Being that I have probably graduated from the compulsive to the retentive, I dispense my powder charge from a powder measure into the pan of a scale and then bring all charges up to the same weight. My powder measure works quite well, but during my testing of its performance and trying to determine what settings on the drum would give my the charges I was hoping for, I noticed that I could generally hold things to about .3 grain. Not too bad, but then again, not quite the consistency I was hoping for. Then, every so often, the charge would be off a grain or so. My technique in dispensing the powder was as uniform as I could manage. Thus there were other things at work-such as bridging-over which I had no control, or means to determine, other than by weighing the charges. Interestingly, I noticed that during my loading sessions, the charges would begin to get gradually lighter. I'm guessing that the initial fill of the hopper compacts the powder on the bottom-near the drum-more than the stuff at the top of the hopper. This was also a change that was something I could not have determined unless the charges were being weighed.
Does it make a difference at the target? Dunno. That's something to be determined when I can spend more time at the range testing a bunch of hypothoses against reality. It may just turn out that both weighing bullets and powder charges is a grand waste of time. I may even have to give up indexing my primers
Good luck, Smokin
There really is no such thing as weight measured by volume or volumes determined by weight. Volume is something that occupies space and is measured in cubic units such as inches or centimeters or quarts or liters... Weight is the effect of gravity on mass and is measured in other units such as grams or grains or pounds or scruples or drams... Some volumetric black powder measures are graduated to approximate weights, but it is only an approximation. Black powder granules are irregluar in shape, thus their orientation in a container can affect how many granules can be held in a given volume. This can easily be seen when one compares the volume of a gently filled case to one which has been filled via a drop tube. The granules dropped from a height will orient themselves into a smaller volume than the ones allowed to more loosely pack themselves. Now add enough more powder to fill the case where the charge was drop-tubed and weigh that charge. The powder in that case will weigh more even though it is occupying the same volume.
Being that I have probably graduated from the compulsive to the retentive, I dispense my powder charge from a powder measure into the pan of a scale and then bring all charges up to the same weight. My powder measure works quite well, but during my testing of its performance and trying to determine what settings on the drum would give my the charges I was hoping for, I noticed that I could generally hold things to about .3 grain. Not too bad, but then again, not quite the consistency I was hoping for. Then, every so often, the charge would be off a grain or so. My technique in dispensing the powder was as uniform as I could manage. Thus there were other things at work-such as bridging-over which I had no control, or means to determine, other than by weighing the charges. Interestingly, I noticed that during my loading sessions, the charges would begin to get gradually lighter. I'm guessing that the initial fill of the hopper compacts the powder on the bottom-near the drum-more than the stuff at the top of the hopper. This was also a change that was something I could not have determined unless the charges were being weighed.
Does it make a difference at the target? Dunno. That's something to be determined when I can spend more time at the range testing a bunch of hypothoses against reality. It may just turn out that both weighing bullets and powder charges is a grand waste of time. I may even have to give up indexing my primers
Good luck, SmokinSmokin
Member in tall standing of the Frozen Tundra Chapter, Flat Earth Society.
Member in tall standing of the Frozen Tundra Chapter, Flat Earth Society.
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MikeT
- Posts: 668
- Joined: Sun May 25, 2003 7:48 pm
- Location: Saint Cloud, MN
Gentlemen,
I believe that Smokin means that weight is a more repeatable measure than pouring into a volumn. That is true, but that may not make a preceptable difference on the target. I have chronographed loads that were identical with the exception of one grain of powder [weighed]. The results were very close in average velocity [about 5 fps per grain]. This will only happen if you are loaded near the optimun for the bullet, case, primer, etc.... that your are loading. The bottom line is I do track the weighed powder load, but do not like to have to weigh each load. Just weighing the powder charge is a good reference for the setting up of the measure, then go for it [consistancy is a must in the pouring]. I cannot see the difference between the weighed loads and poured volumne loads.
Keep on hav'n fun!
I believe that Smokin means that weight is a more repeatable measure than pouring into a volumn. That is true, but that may not make a preceptable difference on the target. I have chronographed loads that were identical with the exception of one grain of powder [weighed]. The results were very close in average velocity [about 5 fps per grain]. This will only happen if you are loaded near the optimun for the bullet, case, primer, etc.... that your are loading. The bottom line is I do track the weighed powder load, but do not like to have to weigh each load. Just weighing the powder charge is a good reference for the setting up of the measure, then go for it [consistancy is a must in the pouring]. I cannot see the difference between the weighed loads and poured volumne loads.
Keep on hav'n fun!