I have a recipe for "squib" loads for the .45-70 using .457 round ball and pistol charges of Unique or 2400 or light charges of IMR-4227 and IMR-4198.
All held in place by dacron or Pufflon, of course.
Historically, there were "gallery" and "guard" loads for the .45-70 for indoor shooting using black powder.
I have a reference that suggests 20-30 grs of black powder.
Would the same wad of dacron or Pufflon work or do I need to use Cream of Wheat or some other inert filler?
I want to bring a lady into the game with a trap door carbine that she can handle and have fun with.
Todd
"Squib", Guard or Gallery Loads for .45-70
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Todd Birch
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"Squib", Guard or Gallery Loads for .45-70
"From birth to the packing house, we travel between the two eternities ....." Robert Duvall in "Broken Trail"
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Trigger Dr
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Per J.S. and Pat Wolf, the gallery loads are loaded as follows
"METHOD FOR BOTH INDOOR & OUTDOOR GALLERY LOADS
WW or RP size and expand. .096 flash hole, Fed 215 or WLRM primer The powder charge, governed by the distance being fired, is placed in the case and a .457 round ball, lubricated in Lee Alox, is positioned in the case mouth. Then, the ball is pushed firmly onto the powder charge with a .45 caliber short starter (as used by the muzzle loading clan), twisting the ball slightly as it is seated releases trapped air. If air is not released during seating, a ball may pop out from one of the just-loaded rounds. Pressure is applied on the lead ball until it is seated to an index line marked on the short starter. This line, marked after the ball is firmly in place in the first cartridge loaded, provided a quick check for correct seating depth in subsequent rounds." (pp 143 LOADING CARTRIDGES FOR THE ORIGINAL 45-70 SPRINGFIELD RIFLE AND CARBINE, J. S. & Pat Wolf)
Wolf goes on to say that 5 gr opf FFg in the rilfle gives 570 FPS. A 5 gr charge of FFFg gives a velocity of 630 FPS/.
Great reference book If you do not have it, get it.
Jim
"METHOD FOR BOTH INDOOR & OUTDOOR GALLERY LOADS
WW or RP size and expand. .096 flash hole, Fed 215 or WLRM primer The powder charge, governed by the distance being fired, is placed in the case and a .457 round ball, lubricated in Lee Alox, is positioned in the case mouth. Then, the ball is pushed firmly onto the powder charge with a .45 caliber short starter (as used by the muzzle loading clan), twisting the ball slightly as it is seated releases trapped air. If air is not released during seating, a ball may pop out from one of the just-loaded rounds. Pressure is applied on the lead ball until it is seated to an index line marked on the short starter. This line, marked after the ball is firmly in place in the first cartridge loaded, provided a quick check for correct seating depth in subsequent rounds." (pp 143 LOADING CARTRIDGES FOR THE ORIGINAL 45-70 SPRINGFIELD RIFLE AND CARBINE, J. S. & Pat Wolf)
Wolf goes on to say that 5 gr opf FFg in the rilfle gives 570 FPS. A 5 gr charge of FFFg gives a velocity of 630 FPS/.
Great reference book If you do not have it, get it.
Jim
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Todd Birch
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Squib Loads
Thanks for jogging my memory, Jim.
In fact, I do have the Wolf book on the Springfield. I acquired it at the same time as my H&R carbine and Officer Model.
I kind of put it aside when I realized it was mainly directed at the originals with bores as large as .460-.462 and fed them loads I was using in my Sharps rifles.
I was wondering why the recommendation for enlarged primer flash holes when the standard size seems to ignite full house loads pretty well.
The answer is on page 145......
enlarged flash holes "are required in order to initiate full primary ignition of the black powder neccesary for consistent velocity. Failure to use this combination of flash hole and magnum primer will result in insufficient case obturation indicated by fired cases with outside fouling.
I do not recommend the use of loose fillers such as cornmeal over powder charges, as they create too much dust for indoor use."
The book also states that the recommended loads produce almost no smoke or odour! Not that I intend to prove it in the basement, but that is an interesting fact.
In the case of loads using 25-30 grains of BP, I think I'll use a wad to compress the powder, a lubricated wad and then the round ball. Rolling round ball in any kind of lube doesn't sound productive.
I've tried instructing with squib loads in other guns and it wasn't a productive exercise, in my opinion. Some noise and recoil seems to be a better way to go.
Whatcha think?
Todd
In fact, I do have the Wolf book on the Springfield. I acquired it at the same time as my H&R carbine and Officer Model.
I kind of put it aside when I realized it was mainly directed at the originals with bores as large as .460-.462 and fed them loads I was using in my Sharps rifles.
I was wondering why the recommendation for enlarged primer flash holes when the standard size seems to ignite full house loads pretty well.
The answer is on page 145......
enlarged flash holes "are required in order to initiate full primary ignition of the black powder neccesary for consistent velocity. Failure to use this combination of flash hole and magnum primer will result in insufficient case obturation indicated by fired cases with outside fouling.
I do not recommend the use of loose fillers such as cornmeal over powder charges, as they create too much dust for indoor use."
The book also states that the recommended loads produce almost no smoke or odour! Not that I intend to prove it in the basement, but that is an interesting fact.
In the case of loads using 25-30 grains of BP, I think I'll use a wad to compress the powder, a lubricated wad and then the round ball. Rolling round ball in any kind of lube doesn't sound productive.
I've tried instructing with squib loads in other guns and it wasn't a productive exercise, in my opinion. Some noise and recoil seems to be a better way to go.
Whatcha think?
Todd
"From birth to the packing house, we travel between the two eternities ....." Robert Duvall in "Broken Trail"
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Trigger Dr
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I agree.
Jim
Jim
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kantishna
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Todd Birch
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Collar Button Loads
I have a Guns & Ammo 'mini-manual' dated 1973 with a lot of info in it on the .45-70; a lot more than some larger sources.
They talk about the Lyman/Ideal 457130 - 145 gr, "collar button". Damned if it don't look like one ......got a big round bottom grease groove and a conical nose.
A .457 round ball weighs in at around 146-150 grs so you've got the equivalent in lead if not shape.
Recommended loads are:
- Unique: 5-10 grs
- 2400: 10-15 grs
- IMR 4227: 15-18 grs
- IMR 4198: 15-18 grs
Black powder: 5 grs FFg gives 570 fps, five grs FFFg for more velocity (630 fps). These are reported to give 1 -1 /2" groups.
Ream out the flash hole to .096 and seat the ball on top of the powder, no filler.
Lube is a problem with round ball.
Loads using 210 gr pistols bullets:
Unique: 8-10 grs
2400: 15-18 grs
IMR 4227: 15-18 grs
IMR 4198: 18-21 grs
Loads using 240-260 gr pistol bullets:
2400: 20-25 grs
IMR 4227: 20-25 grs
IMR 4198: 20-25 grs
The black powder squib loads were used in the Infantry Trap Door. I'm amazed they made it out of the rifle.....
Todd
They talk about the Lyman/Ideal 457130 - 145 gr, "collar button". Damned if it don't look like one ......got a big round bottom grease groove and a conical nose.
A .457 round ball weighs in at around 146-150 grs so you've got the equivalent in lead if not shape.
Recommended loads are:
- Unique: 5-10 grs
- 2400: 10-15 grs
- IMR 4227: 15-18 grs
- IMR 4198: 15-18 grs
Black powder: 5 grs FFg gives 570 fps, five grs FFFg for more velocity (630 fps). These are reported to give 1 -1 /2" groups.
Ream out the flash hole to .096 and seat the ball on top of the powder, no filler.
Lube is a problem with round ball.
Loads using 210 gr pistols bullets:
Unique: 8-10 grs
2400: 15-18 grs
IMR 4227: 15-18 grs
IMR 4198: 18-21 grs
Loads using 240-260 gr pistol bullets:
2400: 20-25 grs
IMR 4227: 20-25 grs
IMR 4198: 20-25 grs
The black powder squib loads were used in the Infantry Trap Door. I'm amazed they made it out of the rifle.....
Todd
"From birth to the packing house, we travel between the two eternities ....." Robert Duvall in "Broken Trail"
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Ron B
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Squib Loads 45-70
Hi,
I had a lot better luck with a lee bullet that was origionally designed for the Ruger old Army BP it is a conical bullet that weighed around 210 gr and miked out .456 dia cast out of wheel weights than with a round ball in a 45-70, I also used 2400 powder. The load i used was in an older lyman reloading book late 1950,s shot real well at 50 yds.
I had a lot better luck with a lee bullet that was origionally designed for the Ruger old Army BP it is a conical bullet that weighed around 210 gr and miked out .456 dia cast out of wheel weights than with a round ball in a 45-70, I also used 2400 powder. The load i used was in an older lyman reloading book late 1950,s shot real well at 50 yds.
Born a hundred and 10 years too late !