Well it's snowing out today which we need since we're in this drought condition. Yesterday was pretty calm around here for a change so I got a chance to do some load developement for silhouettes. My question is what's the best way to go about developing a match load? By this I mean do you pick a powder charge and try several different primers and after that use the best performing primer with several powder charges. Or do you pick a primer and vary the powder charges up until you find the best load with that primer then go to the next primer? The first scenario sounds better to me since it seems like you can eliminate primers that your rifle doesn't like right away, but maybe not.
An example was yesterday I loaded up two identical loads for my Shiloh 45-70 except for primers. Lyman 457132, Win brass, 66.0 gr Goex 2F compessed .180. One had Win. mag rifle primers the other had Fed. 215 mag rifle primers. At 200 yds the Win. primers grouped into 9 3/4 in with 9 shots into 7 1/4 in. The Fed's went 13 1/8 and averaged 20 fps faster. I know neither of these groups are good but should I use this same powder charge and try some different primers to see if I can find one that works better and then alter the charge. I figure the charge and compression are about average and not too light or heavy. I did use a compression die. I lucked out and got satisfactory results for my hunting loads with the Win primers and a Lyman 457193 but for match use with this bullet I'm having more trouble.
As far as compression goes there seems to be two very different opinions on amount, one camp says very little the other says alot. Both seem to get good results. Could there be a connection between certain primers liking more compression? I know I've gone on too long.
Another match load question
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pete
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Lee Stone
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Well, here's another wild card to throw into your deck.
I have good results with .45/70 loading the 457132 Postell over 68gr of Swiss FFg compressed sufficiently to cover all grease grooves in Winchester brass with Federal 210 LRPs. I compress under an overpowder card and place a thin wax paper wad between the base of the bullet and the card wad. Actually the thin wad is the plasticized paper used for artist's pallets.
I have good results with .45/70 loading the 457132 Postell over 68gr of Swiss FFg compressed sufficiently to cover all grease grooves in Winchester brass with Federal 210 LRPs. I compress under an overpowder card and place a thin wax paper wad between the base of the bullet and the card wad. Actually the thin wad is the plasticized paper used for artist's pallets.
Lee Stone
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horsefly
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Good Morning, Pete;
I believe that you will always do better by changing a continuous variable. If you change primers, all you know is that one works better than another in THAT LOAD. There is no predictable increment between one primer and another.
So, what I do is to pick one primer, one bullet, one seating depth, one wad, one powder and vary the powder charge. Compression will automatically change as you change charge weight and leave seating depth the same. If you want to change seating depth, leave everything else the same and vary seating depth. As you vary seating depth, compression will also change, but don't sweat it.
Here is how I start: Pick all the components and choose a seating depth that will engrave the bullet (show rifling marks on bullet) of 0.020 to 0.040. Then put in enough powder that you have to compress from 0.125 to 0.275 with Goex. With Swiss, use enough that the bullet dependably touches the wad. You can compress up to 0.030 or 0.040 with Swiss. I usually vary powder by one grain increments until I find the groups tightening and then I go to 0.5 grains. Seems to me like less than half grain increments is akin to relieving yourself into the wind.
Of course, when you change a non variable component, you need to go through another series of changing the variable one(s).
Now I'm going to commit heresy. I do not believe that there are any magic primers or bullets or anything else. I have never failed to find a decent load with just about any reasonable combination of components. Please note that I DID NOT say that I always get really good match grade loads that way. But with good bullets seated concentrically in good cases, just about anything will shoot acceptably.
Except for the "heresy" paragraph above what I have told you is all pretty "conventional wisdom". You will find all kinds of exceptions but I don't believe you will be let down by what I have outlined. Get started and then you can start looking for your own exceptions.
Y'all be good.
horsefly
I believe that you will always do better by changing a continuous variable. If you change primers, all you know is that one works better than another in THAT LOAD. There is no predictable increment between one primer and another.
So, what I do is to pick one primer, one bullet, one seating depth, one wad, one powder and vary the powder charge. Compression will automatically change as you change charge weight and leave seating depth the same. If you want to change seating depth, leave everything else the same and vary seating depth. As you vary seating depth, compression will also change, but don't sweat it.
Here is how I start: Pick all the components and choose a seating depth that will engrave the bullet (show rifling marks on bullet) of 0.020 to 0.040. Then put in enough powder that you have to compress from 0.125 to 0.275 with Goex. With Swiss, use enough that the bullet dependably touches the wad. You can compress up to 0.030 or 0.040 with Swiss. I usually vary powder by one grain increments until I find the groups tightening and then I go to 0.5 grains. Seems to me like less than half grain increments is akin to relieving yourself into the wind.
Of course, when you change a non variable component, you need to go through another series of changing the variable one(s).
Now I'm going to commit heresy. I do not believe that there are any magic primers or bullets or anything else. I have never failed to find a decent load with just about any reasonable combination of components. Please note that I DID NOT say that I always get really good match grade loads that way. But with good bullets seated concentrically in good cases, just about anything will shoot acceptably.
Except for the "heresy" paragraph above what I have told you is all pretty "conventional wisdom". You will find all kinds of exceptions but I don't believe you will be let down by what I have outlined. Get started and then you can start looking for your own exceptions.
Y'all be good.
horsefly
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Pathfinder
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Pete,
It's not snowing on this side of the mountain-good shoots Sat & Sun.
I just spent the last 6 months doing load development for my .45-70s & I started with a good known production bullet like you (same one), but then loaded up 5 rd. loads one grain appart 65-70- shot them all & saw good groups in the low end & the top. Then refined it from there. I started with WLRs as I had seen some posts that all said that they seemed to be pretty consistent with Goex- tried some others including pistol, but settled on the WLR. In my case, I've found that cartridge semms to work better than 2F and was cleaner- also Goex seems to like .25-.30" comp. better in my loads. Tried some Swiss 1-1/2 (less comp.) and it shot as good as, sometimes a 1/4" better than the Cart., but didn't think it was worth twice the price after a couple of pounds- also thought it might have been a bit dirtier. (Note also that most of the top shooters are using it, so pay your money & make your chioce!) Anyway from there I went to a couple of different bullets. Bottom line is that a lot of trigger time is probably going to have as much to do with your groups as the load- you may get it all together & very occasionaly shoot that 1Moa group, but I find it is a long time between them, but you should get a couple of different combinations to go pretty consistently under 2Moa- then it's being able to shoot the conditions
Good luck - it's a great way to spend some time!.......Pathfinder
It's not snowing on this side of the mountain-good shoots Sat & Sun.
I just spent the last 6 months doing load development for my .45-70s & I started with a good known production bullet like you (same one), but then loaded up 5 rd. loads one grain appart 65-70- shot them all & saw good groups in the low end & the top. Then refined it from there. I started with WLRs as I had seen some posts that all said that they seemed to be pretty consistent with Goex- tried some others including pistol, but settled on the WLR. In my case, I've found that cartridge semms to work better than 2F and was cleaner- also Goex seems to like .25-.30" comp. better in my loads. Tried some Swiss 1-1/2 (less comp.) and it shot as good as, sometimes a 1/4" better than the Cart., but didn't think it was worth twice the price after a couple of pounds- also thought it might have been a bit dirtier. (Note also that most of the top shooters are using it, so pay your money & make your chioce!) Anyway from there I went to a couple of different bullets. Bottom line is that a lot of trigger time is probably going to have as much to do with your groups as the load- you may get it all together & very occasionaly shoot that 1Moa group, but I find it is a long time between them, but you should get a couple of different combinations to go pretty consistently under 2Moa- then it's being able to shoot the conditions
Good luck - it's a great way to spend some time!.......Pathfinder-
Smokin
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.45-70 loads
pete,
There is a book available which takes us beginners through the laborious process of developing loads for the the .45-70, it is "LOADING CARTRIDGES FOR THE ORIGINAL .45-70 SPRINGFIELD RIFLE AND CARBINE" by J. S. and Pat Wolf. It is really a description of the re-learning of what the Ordnance Department developed for the Springfield Rifle. The cartridge was really loaded with 70 grains of black powder, thus this may be a reasonable place to start with our modern loads.
A good friend, rdnck, who also posts on this board, has noted that the Arsenal load for the .45-70 is very close to the amount of FFg black powder that can be gently spooned into the case and struck level with the case mouth. Try it yourself and you will learn that a R-P case will accept about 70 grains of powder and that a W-W case will accept about 72 grains of GOEX FFg when the powder is gently placed in the case, leveled, and then weighed.
The powder is then pre-compressed before seating the bullet. In the case of the Arsenal round, the powder was compressed to an insert depth of .610" to accept the bullet being seated deeply enough to cover all 3 grease grooves of the original bullet. In the original loading, no wads were used, but I believe that the Arsenal lube was comprised of baywax and graphite, which was probably stiff enough that there was no problem with lube migration to the powder charge.
This book is available from several sources, including its co-author, Pat Wolf. Spence Wolf died several years ago, but his wife Pat has brought out a new addition which, I believe, includes some new information.
Good luck, Smokin
http://www.the45-70book.com/8c8e549a7aa ... /index.pmg
There is a book available which takes us beginners through the laborious process of developing loads for the the .45-70, it is "LOADING CARTRIDGES FOR THE ORIGINAL .45-70 SPRINGFIELD RIFLE AND CARBINE" by J. S. and Pat Wolf. It is really a description of the re-learning of what the Ordnance Department developed for the Springfield Rifle. The cartridge was really loaded with 70 grains of black powder, thus this may be a reasonable place to start with our modern loads.
A good friend, rdnck, who also posts on this board, has noted that the Arsenal load for the .45-70 is very close to the amount of FFg black powder that can be gently spooned into the case and struck level with the case mouth. Try it yourself and you will learn that a R-P case will accept about 70 grains of powder and that a W-W case will accept about 72 grains of GOEX FFg when the powder is gently placed in the case, leveled, and then weighed.
The powder is then pre-compressed before seating the bullet. In the case of the Arsenal round, the powder was compressed to an insert depth of .610" to accept the bullet being seated deeply enough to cover all 3 grease grooves of the original bullet. In the original loading, no wads were used, but I believe that the Arsenal lube was comprised of baywax and graphite, which was probably stiff enough that there was no problem with lube migration to the powder charge.
This book is available from several sources, including its co-author, Pat Wolf. Spence Wolf died several years ago, but his wife Pat has brought out a new addition which, I believe, includes some new information.
Good luck, Smokin
http://www.the45-70book.com/8c8e549a7aa ... /index.pmg
Smokin
Member in tall standing of the Frozen Tundra Chapter, Flat Earth Society.
Member in tall standing of the Frozen Tundra Chapter, Flat Earth Society.
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Lee Stone
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Smokin,
Thanks. I was remiss in not telling Pete about Spence and Pat's book. To me that is a must reference book for any blackpowder shooter's library. And yes, Pat has extended the book into a 2nd and now a 3rd edition. And in addition to being very informative, it is a down right enjoyable read.
Thanks. I was remiss in not telling Pete about Spence and Pat's book. To me that is a must reference book for any blackpowder shooter's library. And yes, Pat has extended the book into a 2nd and now a 3rd edition. And in addition to being very informative, it is a down right enjoyable read.
Lee Stone
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pete
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Thanks guys. It's good to get a variety of ideas. I guess I always thought the book by the Wolf's was geared toward loading the 45-70 specifically for the Trapdoor with it's three groove barrel and any other peculiarities it might have and not really apply to other makes.
Smokin you brought up the original arsenal loadings and I thought I'd mention that I have an original 1878 copper case and I did a little comparison between it and a modern Win. and Rem. case. With a .435 case lip to powder dim. the original case held 69.5 gr. of 2f, the Win. held 68.0 and the Rem. held 65.0 gr. If a bullet is .600 base to top of grease grooves that's .195 of compression with a .030 wad. Not as much as some use but I think it shows that the Win. case isn't that far behind the original.
I think I'll play some more with the Win. mag primer and throw out the Fed. primer for now as it didn't really work that great with the hunting loads either. After playing with the Win. mag's I'll try the CCI BR2's since they're at the other end of the power spectrum according to the site on the primer posting on this forum.
Pathfinder I have some Cartridge dated 1998 but it gave slower velocities than the 2002 2f with my hunting load readings. Maybe you know if that's something to do with that year, but I'll try it with the match loads and see how it works.
The last couple days I've been finishing up a new cartridge belt and practicing for a cowboy mounted shooting match this weekend. My horse and I aren't serious competitors (Although he's better than I am) and the other riders don't have to worry about us. We just do the local matches, but it's a rush. Thanks again.
Smokin you brought up the original arsenal loadings and I thought I'd mention that I have an original 1878 copper case and I did a little comparison between it and a modern Win. and Rem. case. With a .435 case lip to powder dim. the original case held 69.5 gr. of 2f, the Win. held 68.0 and the Rem. held 65.0 gr. If a bullet is .600 base to top of grease grooves that's .195 of compression with a .030 wad. Not as much as some use but I think it shows that the Win. case isn't that far behind the original.
I think I'll play some more with the Win. mag primer and throw out the Fed. primer for now as it didn't really work that great with the hunting loads either. After playing with the Win. mag's I'll try the CCI BR2's since they're at the other end of the power spectrum according to the site on the primer posting on this forum.
Pathfinder I have some Cartridge dated 1998 but it gave slower velocities than the 2002 2f with my hunting load readings. Maybe you know if that's something to do with that year, but I'll try it with the match loads and see how it works.
The last couple days I've been finishing up a new cartridge belt and practicing for a cowboy mounted shooting match this weekend. My horse and I aren't serious competitors (Although he's better than I am) and the other riders don't have to worry about us. We just do the local matches, but it's a rush. Thanks again.
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deerhuntsheatmeup
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1 year of learning...
In 1 year of loading and shooting BPCR I have learned this. Change one variable at the time. I would get a std. primer and up my compression until my groups started tightening up. Once you have a load that is clean burning and accurate to within reason, then start changing things like primers and move your bullet in/out in the case(relative to the rifling). You can get a decent load to shoot with just about any primer, but you can't get a bad load to shoot with the best of primers. My 2 cents, Later, David Barfield
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Pathfinder
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Pete,
A lot of good advice on these forums! All of the Goex Cart. that I have used has been a 2001 lot & it works fine, (just got a new case of Dec. 2003 yesterday that I'll try soon). Other than Mounted CAS, you didn't mention (or I missed it) what kind of shooting that you are load developing for? I was assuming either Silhouette or LR matches? I have been using a 500gr Lee bullet out to 400yds, but actually it still seems to hold together beyond that, but I have been using a 540 gr Hoke nose pour for the rams & longer as I think it holds up to the wind better.
I don't own a chronograph, but a guy using one next to me let me fire a couple of rounds thru his a couple weeks ago. One was a long range load of 72gr. of 3f in Starline w/Lee bullet that went 1305fps & the other was 70 of cartridge (same bullet) @ 1230. I've noticed that high velocity doesn't particularly corrolate to better accuracy, but you need enough of it if you want that bullet to hit something at 1000-1500 yds.
Heading to my cabin up in the back country of Idaho (if I can get thru all the elk!) in the AM so will be amoung the missing for a couple of weeks... will try to get to one of those shoots over near you in Watkins or Byers when I get back, looking forward to Mike's State BPCRS Scope match in Rifle the 4th Sat. in May & KWs the weekend after....Good luck! ...Dennis
A lot of good advice on these forums! All of the Goex Cart. that I have used has been a 2001 lot & it works fine, (just got a new case of Dec. 2003 yesterday that I'll try soon). Other than Mounted CAS, you didn't mention (or I missed it) what kind of shooting that you are load developing for? I was assuming either Silhouette or LR matches? I have been using a 500gr Lee bullet out to 400yds, but actually it still seems to hold together beyond that, but I have been using a 540 gr Hoke nose pour for the rams & longer as I think it holds up to the wind better.
I don't own a chronograph, but a guy using one next to me let me fire a couple of rounds thru his a couple weeks ago. One was a long range load of 72gr. of 3f in Starline w/Lee bullet that went 1305fps & the other was 70 of cartridge (same bullet) @ 1230. I've noticed that high velocity doesn't particularly corrolate to better accuracy, but you need enough of it if you want that bullet to hit something at 1000-1500 yds.
Heading to my cabin up in the back country of Idaho (if I can get thru all the elk!) in the AM so will be amoung the missing for a couple of weeks... will try to get to one of those shoots over near you in Watkins or Byers when I get back, looking forward to Mike's State BPCRS Scope match in Rifle the 4th Sat. in May & KWs the weekend after....Good luck! ...Dennis
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pete
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deerhuntsm....Man you got to get a shorter name. 
I was just wondering in what order people change things. Another thing is that I'll have to get used to is compressing powder up .300. I get to about .200 and figure that's far enough. I know alot of guys go to .300 and it works for them so I'll give it a try. And get a copy of the Wolf's 45-70 book too. Thanks.
I was just wondering in what order people change things. Another thing is that I'll have to get used to is compressing powder up .300. I get to about .200 and figure that's far enough. I know alot of guys go to .300 and it works for them so I'll give it a try. And get a copy of the Wolf's 45-70 book too. Thanks.-
deerhuntsheatmeup
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OK
Use initials if you like....
I started out with a 1/4 inch compression and the load I have found that shoots cleanest and most accurate for me has a little over .350 compression. I know that is a bunch but it does not bulge the case and I get 70 grns of ffg in a Rem. case and with a .030 vegi fiber wad, I still cover up the grease grooves on a 457132 bullet.
I use Fed 210 primers fwiw.......
The brass prep is the same every time, I FL size and ever so slightly bell the case mouth so as to not shave lead and set my seating die low enough that the case walls are straight after seating the bullet. I have no problems chambering while shooting a 72 round mid-range match without wiping between relays. Blow tubing only.
I have used Goex ffg and Cart. and have had great results with both.
Good Luck to you in your load developement.........
Later, Barvid Dayfield
I started out with a 1/4 inch compression and the load I have found that shoots cleanest and most accurate for me has a little over .350 compression. I know that is a bunch but it does not bulge the case and I get 70 grns of ffg in a Rem. case and with a .030 vegi fiber wad, I still cover up the grease grooves on a 457132 bullet.
I use Fed 210 primers fwiw.......
The brass prep is the same every time, I FL size and ever so slightly bell the case mouth so as to not shave lead and set my seating die low enough that the case walls are straight after seating the bullet. I have no problems chambering while shooting a 72 round mid-range match without wiping between relays. Blow tubing only.
I have used Goex ffg and Cart. and have had great results with both.
Good Luck to you in your load developement.........
Later, Barvid Dayfield
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carl thomas zmuda
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- Location: Turnip Seed Creek, Idaho
blow tubing-not enough
I recently started loading black powder in my Pedersoli 1874 Sharps. I blow about 7 times through my tube between shoots, but I can only get about 5 rounds off before I need to run a cleaning rod down the barrel to eliminate the fouling. Is this normal?
My load is 62.5 grains of Cartridge Goex, a .03 fiber wad, and a Lyman 457125 all in a Starline 45/70 case. Will more powder and compression help or do I refine my blow tubing technique?
My load is 62.5 grains of Cartridge Goex, a .03 fiber wad, and a Lyman 457125 all in a Starline 45/70 case. Will more powder and compression help or do I refine my blow tubing technique?
Have a good day!
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Ken Hartlein
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Carl T Z, no I would say that is not normal. I've shot my 45-70 as many as 25 times with only the blow tube. I give it 7 or 8 puffs usually. I think you need a little more powder and maybe a bit more compression, I've been using 67.5 grains of cartridge and compressing it .220. I also use a John Walters veggie wad of .060 and seat the Lyman bullet .590. I don't remember what the uncompressed powder column is but the formula is Powder column = Bullet depth + wad - compression. Lets see now, that would be .590 + .060 - .220, that equals .430 uncompressed powder column from a 24" drop tube. Whew, I've got a headache after all that! I need a dos xx's bad!! hee hee. 
Shiloh Rules!!
Republic of Texas Shiloh Hunter
Republic of Texas Shiloh Hunter
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LJBass
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CTZ,
Without being there to see what you're doing it's a little tough to point you in the right direction. The 457125 bullet can be a real bear if the nose diameter is a little too big. Regarding blow tube technique; I shot a 45 round mid-range match today and only wiped the bore after the match was over. Including foulers and sighters that was 56 rounds. Temperature was 80 degrees and humidity was at 30 percent (very high and very low respectively for western WA) I used 4 deep breaths per round. I believe it was hpguy420 who described correct blow tube technique as Zen blow tubing. If you can get down to Spokane on 2nd Saturdays you could meet the guys who shoot in the gong match at Mica Peak. They meet at the Dennys Restaurant at Pines and Sprague in the Valley at 7:30am. They are a friendly bunch of guys with a wealth of experience who would be glad to share it with you.
Regards, LJ
Without being there to see what you're doing it's a little tough to point you in the right direction. The 457125 bullet can be a real bear if the nose diameter is a little too big. Regarding blow tube technique; I shot a 45 round mid-range match today and only wiped the bore after the match was over. Including foulers and sighters that was 56 rounds. Temperature was 80 degrees and humidity was at 30 percent (very high and very low respectively for western WA) I used 4 deep breaths per round. I believe it was hpguy420 who described correct blow tube technique as Zen blow tubing. If you can get down to Spokane on 2nd Saturdays you could meet the guys who shoot in the gong match at Mica Peak. They meet at the Dennys Restaurant at Pines and Sprague in the Valley at 7:30am. They are a friendly bunch of guys with a wealth of experience who would be glad to share it with you.
Regards, LJ
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deerhuntsheatmeup
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- Joined: Sat Feb 15, 2003 6:36 pm
- Location: Mississippi
Do Not
CTZ,
Do Not compress your powder with the bullet! The 457125 design is a bore riding bullet and it just barely fits in the bore to start with. If you compress your powder at all with the bullet you will enlarge the bullet diameter and they will not chamber. Also, what kind of bullet lube are you using? It needs to be Black Powder lube, not smokeless.
Hope this helps, Barvid Dayfield
Do Not compress your powder with the bullet! The 457125 design is a bore riding bullet and it just barely fits in the bore to start with. If you compress your powder at all with the bullet you will enlarge the bullet diameter and they will not chamber. Also, what kind of bullet lube are you using? It needs to be Black Powder lube, not smokeless.
Hope this helps, Barvid Dayfield