Brass (paper) cartridges
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Royal
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Brass (paper) cartridges
Exactly how does one go about using the brass "inserts" or bodies in place of a combustable paper cartridge? How are the brass bodies removed from the breech? If I understand correctly the powder is loaded into the brass portion much like a regular cartridge and the bullet inserted into the end of the brass. In something like a .54 how thick is the brass? As a former machinist it doesn't look like a .50 cal. would be too dificult to make.
Shiloh 45-120; Long Range express, .45-70 "Old Reliable" carbine, .50 1863 3 band musket.---- If you really love something set it free; if it doesn't come back, hunt it down and kill it.
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gmartin
- Posts: 361
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- Location: Boise Id
Royal,
I know some folks have had problems with getting the dimensions of the brass correct.
I see you own a nice black powder cartridge rifle. Great. Just curious then, why mess with the brass cartridge in a '63 anyway? The mystique (sp) of that rifle lies in the fact that it was a valuable step in the evolution between muzzleloader and cartridge rifle.
The traditional methods developed to arm that piece are fascinating, and I enjoy the construction of paper cartridges with matching bullet as you must from developing loads for your 45/70.
People keep coming up with brass cartridge questions and of course it is a way, but is that it that inherent paper, linen, whatever, loading step that has them interested in brass?
Respectfully, Gregg
I know some folks have had problems with getting the dimensions of the brass correct.
I see you own a nice black powder cartridge rifle. Great. Just curious then, why mess with the brass cartridge in a '63 anyway? The mystique (sp) of that rifle lies in the fact that it was a valuable step in the evolution between muzzleloader and cartridge rifle.
The traditional methods developed to arm that piece are fascinating, and I enjoy the construction of paper cartridges with matching bullet as you must from developing loads for your 45/70.
People keep coming up with brass cartridge questions and of course it is a way, but is that it that inherent paper, linen, whatever, loading step that has them interested in brass?
Respectfully, Gregg
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mrrangerman
- Posts: 97
- Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 8:42 am
- Location: Michigan
gmartin
I have to agree with you, I'm new to the 63 paper cartrage and all I can say is COOL. I read people talk of converting them, or using brass inserts I say WHY, if you want a brass cartrage buy a 74 in the cal. of your choice, and leave the 63s alone. Look on the bright side, when you get done shooting you don't have any brass to clean.
Good shootin
Dan
I have to agree with you, I'm new to the 63 paper cartrage and all I can say is COOL. I read people talk of converting them, or using brass inserts I say WHY, if you want a brass cartrage buy a 74 in the cal. of your choice, and leave the 63s alone. Look on the bright side, when you get done shooting you don't have any brass to clean.
Good shootin
Dan
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gmartin
- Posts: 361
- Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2004 9:55 pm
- Location: Boise Id
Dan,
Of course I meant NO disrespect to Frank. It just seems to me that a metalic cartridge in a civil war breech loader best be left for types such as the Burnside, Smith. etc. I am no purist, indeed I shoot Pyrodex as well as Black Powder, (it's cheaper and I can get good accuracy) but yes, the lore of the '63 lies with the cartridge designed for it. For me, and I see for you as well Dan.
Best, Gregg
Of course I meant NO disrespect to Frank. It just seems to me that a metalic cartridge in a civil war breech loader best be left for types such as the Burnside, Smith. etc. I am no purist, indeed I shoot Pyrodex as well as Black Powder, (it's cheaper and I can get good accuracy) but yes, the lore of the '63 lies with the cartridge designed for it. For me, and I see for you as well Dan.
Best, Gregg
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Royal
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- Location: Kansas
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My big question with 1863 paper cartridges
Thanks to you guys who replied. I was only interested in brass "paper" cartridges from the standpoint that I think I could make them. My big problem is that I submitted a question about the paper cartridges under the support forum. I have made combustable cartridges but having been a regular muzzleloader hunter for years I know that you never fire a weapon that the bullet has not been seated firmly on the blackpowder and I fail to see how my .50 Sharps can have the bullet seated firmly on the powder charge. I also have noticed that if I load a loose bullet and then add loose powder it seems to take a whole lot more than 100 grains of BP. Everything about the charge in my .50 Sharps seems to holler WHOA, this doesn't seem consistant or safe.
Shiloh 45-120; Long Range express, .45-70 "Old Reliable" carbine, .50 1863 3 band musket.---- If you really love something set it free; if it doesn't come back, hunt it down and kill it.
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mrrangerman
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- Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 8:42 am
- Location: Michigan
Royal
As I stated in my earlier post, “ I am new to shooting the 63s “ but as I understand it, the air gap is not a factor with these weapons. That is the reason for the gas plate. If you think of it, even if you seat the bullet then fill it with powder, you still have an air gap on the block side. The space around the flash cone can never be completely filled with powder.
( Kirk correct me if I’m wrong)
Kirk’s son Levi shoots a 63 in 54cal he makes the cartridges with a flat base, and is using only 55 gn. of powder, when he loads the cartridge into the weapon there is about an 3/8 inch or more space from the back side of the charge to the block. He then takes a dowel with a nail in it and opens the base for better ignition. I have shot mine with only 65 gn. with a filler to make it come as close to the block as possible and still had an 1/8 or more space and had no problems. I too shoot muzzle loaders and its hard not to worry. Maybe Tod Birch will chime in and give some advice.
Good shootin
Dan
As I stated in my earlier post, “ I am new to shooting the 63s “ but as I understand it, the air gap is not a factor with these weapons. That is the reason for the gas plate. If you think of it, even if you seat the bullet then fill it with powder, you still have an air gap on the block side. The space around the flash cone can never be completely filled with powder.
( Kirk correct me if I’m wrong)
Kirk’s son Levi shoots a 63 in 54cal he makes the cartridges with a flat base, and is using only 55 gn. of powder, when he loads the cartridge into the weapon there is about an 3/8 inch or more space from the back side of the charge to the block. He then takes a dowel with a nail in it and opens the base for better ignition. I have shot mine with only 65 gn. with a filler to make it come as close to the block as possible and still had an 1/8 or more space and had no problems. I too shoot muzzle loaders and its hard not to worry. Maybe Tod Birch will chime in and give some advice.
Good shootin
Dan
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gmartin
- Posts: 361
- Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2004 9:55 pm
- Location: Boise Id
Guys,
Not Todd, just Gregg. Royal, I can see your interest in manufacturing the cartridge, as a machinist it's a challenge. Never the less, the '63 was designed for use BEST with a paper cartridge with the bullet inserted. Of course it may be loaded safely in a variety of ways. That says much for the action of this gun, ie., the gas seal system. Royal, the '63 ('59) is designed to function with a cartridge flush with the chamber and thus close to the flash cone. So long as the cartridge is of a particular OAL for that rifle, so as to seat the bullet in an accurate fashion, the powder charge may be as you desire it to be for the combination of powder/filler/ bullet you have determined best. An air space will always be there as you stated, but the gas seal will do its part upon ignition, sealing the breech and chamber from escaping gases.
Indeed, you may loose load great amounts of powder behind a seated ball, but unless this is a combination that shoots best for you all you are actually doing is increasing the fouling left both in the bore and in the action.
Many of us use Pyrodex, a few use Pyrodex pellets wrapped in a cartridge or not, and other synthetic substitutes even loose loaded, and all is well with the world. Your particular type '63 may shoot well with synthetics or it may not, but the action will do its job. Fouling will simply be different.
My recommendation is to shoot it as it was designed to be, and in so doing this rifle and its creatively designed combination of gas seal system and cartridge will perform best.
Best, Gregg
Not Todd, just Gregg. Royal, I can see your interest in manufacturing the cartridge, as a machinist it's a challenge. Never the less, the '63 was designed for use BEST with a paper cartridge with the bullet inserted. Of course it may be loaded safely in a variety of ways. That says much for the action of this gun, ie., the gas seal system. Royal, the '63 ('59) is designed to function with a cartridge flush with the chamber and thus close to the flash cone. So long as the cartridge is of a particular OAL for that rifle, so as to seat the bullet in an accurate fashion, the powder charge may be as you desire it to be for the combination of powder/filler/ bullet you have determined best. An air space will always be there as you stated, but the gas seal will do its part upon ignition, sealing the breech and chamber from escaping gases.
Indeed, you may loose load great amounts of powder behind a seated ball, but unless this is a combination that shoots best for you all you are actually doing is increasing the fouling left both in the bore and in the action.
Many of us use Pyrodex, a few use Pyrodex pellets wrapped in a cartridge or not, and other synthetic substitutes even loose loaded, and all is well with the world. Your particular type '63 may shoot well with synthetics or it may not, but the action will do its job. Fouling will simply be different.
My recommendation is to shoot it as it was designed to be, and in so doing this rifle and its creatively designed combination of gas seal system and cartridge will perform best.
Best, Gregg