Paper Rings etc

[Orville]

Paper rings are caused by the bullet upsetting in the large chamber and the paper getting stripped off when it hits the 45 degree lead.

[martinibelgian]

Just from my proper experience this morning, shooting .451 PP bulletsin my no.2 Musket rifle with groove dia. .458: This was a 'quick & dirty' test with my usual tapered bullets (.451-.458) sized down to a uniform .451 diameter, but not changing anything else: Basically, I plucked the bullet out of the case, sizd it down, and put it back in without changing anything else.
And yes, I have the conventional 45-degree throat; With pain in the heart I have to admit that this thrown-together load shoots right along with my best (groove-dia, GG) loads in this rifle - this is my provisional conclusion after this 1st test at short range (75m). And yes, I found a few paper rings - but obviously they didn't destroy accuracy nor caused leading.
If it shoots like this with what basically is an emergency solution, sizing down a bullet that is .458 at the base to .451, I do have to side with those saying that no, it won't affect accuracy. Maybe it helps accuracy...

Load data as follows:
Kynoch 500/465 cases reformed to no.2 Musket (the 2nd choice cases, used for testing)
CCI BR2 Primers
84grs of Swiss 1 1/2Fg (no. 4 for us)
Card overpowder wad
540grs tapered brooks bullet, PP'ed and sized to .451, alloy 16:1 L/T (meaning the front still is tapered (1st 3rd, about), but the rest is parallel-sided)
Bullet seated .380 deep, which would be pretty deep for a bore-dia. bullet. Then again, at .451+ (there's always a bit of springback with alloys) it's not really bore diameter, but at least .002 over.

[desert deuce]

Just consulted all of our rifle record books for our BPCR armory going back 20 years.

There is no mention of paper rings.

[Distant Thunder]

My long-range rifle, a .45-70 with a bore diameter chamber, has a 45 degree angle at the end of the chamber. I have never seen a paper ring shooting patched to bore bullets at 11-13 BHN seated about .090" in the case. I would not consider changing it a 7 degree, or any other angle, base on anything I read on the internet. As for improving long range accuracy, I can't imagine how it could be improved by such a change and I would be concerned it could have the opposite result. I would put my rifle up against any other rifle shooting PP in long-range competition and I do so on a regular basis. I don't always win, but if I don't it isn't because of the 45 degree angle in my chamber. It is a very accurate rifle just as it is!

I have and do shoot many bullets patched to groove diameter in other rifles without any paper rings showing up. One reason might be that 3 of these rifles have rather longish freebores and I design my bullets to have as little of the bullet as possible in the case. I tend toward hard bullets because they have been more accurate in my rifles, always.

All that said, I am currently working with my 18 twist .40-65 and paper patched bullets and there I am getting an occasional paper ring. It concerns me a little mostly because it's an unknown. These bullets are a hybrid in that they are 2-diameter. The majority of the patched area is groove diameter, while a smaller forward section is patched to bore diameter. My chamber is similar to the ones found in Browning.40-65s, with maybe just a bit more freebore. In order to have the bullet in the case only .080-.100" and weigh more than 300 grains a 2-diameter design is being used.

Now that I feel I am closing in on an accurate bullet/load I need to pay attention to when the paper ring occurs and what if any effect is noticed on the target. I may have better luck recovering bullets and patches in the winter with fresh snow covering the ground. The patches look good now, but bullets that have had contact with my berm don't all they could with the softer landing snow will provide. It will be interesting to see what I can learn about what happens to these bullet as they move from the case mouth through the freebore and in the rifling.

As for what the ODGs used and did, I can understand someone wanting to do things just like they did at a particular time in their day. I do not think they were any more static than we are. They were not gods! Just like us they were searching for the best new bullet design, a better powder, better fouling control, and list goes on. I see my journey more as a picking up where they left off, moving forward just as I believe they would have if the sport had continued 130+ years ago. Unfortunately smokeless powder came along and caused a hiatus in the quest for the true long range shooting skills that many of us seek today. Good at it or not, I have chosen carry that ball a little further down the field of play from where they left off. Those that choose to be frozen in time can contribute much to the conversation too, but their way is not the only way and they are not always right about what is or is not the best way to do things. They can and will tell you how the ODGs did it, use that information as you see fit.

That is all I have to say on that. Now, if anyone is interested, I have a somewhat used soapbox for those brave enough to step up, make the most of it. Be prepared to duck and cover!

[montana charlie]

I have shot my best Long Range score (26/30) with the Shiloh factory chambered 45-70 plus matched my high score on the mid range (29/30) with my 42 Wesson that also has the 45 deg transition and I got Paper Rings every shot. Kinda why I was wondering. course I'm shooting Patched to groove.

You and I both shoot patched to groove.
We both have 45 degree chamber transition steps.
You get paper rings, and I don't.

I had one once. It was produced by a case that was in that batch by mistake, and it was 'short'.

Paper ring is caused by too short of cases .

I agree with Arnie.

[semtav]

I've tried to make the cases in my 45-90 and 42 Wesson as close to the chamber length as I can get them. I really haven't even tried with the 45-70's tho.What is the general consensus on case length? Just touching the shoulder or a couple thousandths off the shoulder? Seems too close of length case could bring up its own set of problems. I don't resize my cases. Just wondering, I don't seem to get to shoot enough to test all these things out.
Thanks
Brian

[77 sharps]

If your brass is too long you will see what looks like a roll crimp on the case mouth after you fire the cartridge. Since you are not sizing, get them as close as possible. But wouldn't you benefit from the increase in powder capacity if you shot a .444 or .446 bullet patched to slightly over bore diameter if you are shooting long range with a .45-70? Your alloy is hard enough that you could even use 2FG and not get a paper ring. I'm not advocating 2FG for target just illustrating.

[BFD]

If you want a drop-dead traditional rifle, do the "7 degree" thing. It will be fine. It will kill critter with great success, and it will shoot okay. It is a great hunting chamber for using paper patched bullets and lots of antique rifles besides Sharps had them. Ballard for one. I used one to kill a moose almost exactly a year ago. I would not use a target rifle to hunt with and I don't recommend the reverse, though I have done it many times (with unsatisfactory success)

If you want to win matches, it is not the way to go. You may get a good target once in a while. You might even get to win a match with it. But if you CONSISTENTLY want to be in contention down to the last shot, where every single point counts, this is not the chamber for you. Regardless of what the old guys did at the target range, that 7-degree thing will not give you the accuracy you need to be consistently competitive. Jim's (Distant Thunder's) chamber is consistently competitive, without fail. His chamber is identical to mine. These chambers work because they never have to cope with fouling, and they minimize the amount of lead that has to be displaced, swaged up and then down to size to fit in the barrel. If you have paper rings, there is something else wrong with your load. Fix it the problem properly, and your rifle will become competitive. If you have never shot such a rifle, you can't believe how much fun it is to be driving a gun that will do exactly what you tell it to every single time. On the other hand, it will also remove all those convenient excuses when you miss.

What you do is up to you, of course, but keep in mind that cutting a 7-degree chamber will not allow you reverse the impact of that effect without rebarreling or chambering a longer cartridge than the one you started with. It has very costly consequences if your goal is to be maximally competitive.

If you are familiar with the notion of "a quarterback just good enough to get the coach fired" that is a 7-degree chamber in a target rifle today.

[Orville]

If your chmaber is tight like the ODG used he bullet can not upset lager then groove diameter of the barrel, 7 degree lead or one that is 2-3 degrees .

[semtav]

But wouldn't you benefit from the increase in powder capacity if you shot a .444 or .446 bullet patched to slightly over bore diameter if you are shooting long range with a .45-70?

I have a Miroku 45-90 with the small amount of freebore that does me a real good job of Long Rang shooting plus a 45-100 and 45-110 if I get bored with it. The 45-70 would be for mid range. I have my case stretcher with me, so if I do get the rings ( which i'm sure I will) I'll work on stretching a few and testing that.

[BFD]

If your chmaber is tight like the ODG used he bullet can not upset lager then groove diameter of the barrel, 7 degree lead or one that is 2-3 degrees .

If your chamber was like mine, it would upset less and shoot more accurately.

[semtav]

If your chamber is tight like the ODG used he bullet can not upset lager then groove diameter of the barrel, 7 degree lead or one that is 2-3 degrees .

One thing I need to take in to consideration, almost everyone is basing their advice on their experience with Patched to Bore loads. I don't know if I want to be the one to spend the money to test it on Groove dia lods or not. might just work on getting rid of the paper rings in the one I am shooting first, then decide.

[BFD]

Your .45-70 Browning is the best rifle you own for what you want to do. It is nearly ideal for groove paper patch right out of the box. Don't ruin it, use it!

[Don McDowell]

Paper rings are a mystery for sure.
I would suggest if a 7 degree lead is what you want then have a rifle built with that chamber in it. Don't have an existing chamber rethroated,, been there done that, seemed like a good idea at the time, but it turned out not to be.

[Yellowhouse]

[quote="Don McDowell"]Paper rings are a mystery for sure.
I would suggest if a 7 degree lead is what you want then have a rifle built with that chamber in it. Don't have an existing chamber rethroated,, been there done that, seemed like a good idea at the time, but it turned out not to be.[/quote

Don, would you expand on that a little cause up till now I had the itch to do it too.