catridge 577 snider

[Todd Birch]

Check out the site of John C. Denner in Canada.

He often has Sniders in various marks and models, including sporters.

The interest of Americans in British turkeys like the M-H and Snider has always puzzled me. Perhaps it's the 'familiarity breeds contempt' syndrome, but for most of my life, you couldn't give away a Snider or M-H to anyone other than a historical re-enactor.

Fortunately, the interest in things British is common to women as well, as some of us found out recently at a Military Ball south of the line. Southern belles just love to dance and have pictures taken with Soldiers of the Queen in scarlet.
It's hell, but someone has to do it.....

Todd

[Ray Newman]

I 'dunno' 'bout the M-H being a turkey.

It is a sufficiently strong action that it did make into the White/Nitro powder era when chambered for the .303. & that’s something that a great number of its other single shot contemporaries can’t boast of.

& its BP load was what-- a 475 grn bullet propelled by 85 grn BP? Seems to be a stout enough load to deal w/ any man….

I think that M-H has, in some circles, reached almost mystical proportions as a result of the movie “Zulu”. Much like the Sharps & the “Quigley” movie. (Good thing that Hollywood never did a remake of “Tell Them Valdez is Coming” or Shiloh would never be able to build enough rifles.)

I find the M-H biggest drawbacks are: 1) being unable to clean from the breech; 2) the trigger & sights. But how many military rifles of that era had a decent trigger & sights?

Some might say the cost of shooting the M-H is a drawback. But, I don’t include the cost of brass, dies, & proper mould as drawbacks . Nothing associated w/ these old rifles is inexpensive.

Denner does have some nice firearms. I’ve seen a few M-H that came from him & they were in really good condition.

[shooter37]

Ray - Todd
Great comment about us Yanks "lusting" for Brit junk.... I can't thank the Brits enough for flooding the US market with crappy stuff like SMLE's. Do you guys realize how that sparked an interest across US shooters. At $15.00 a pop literally thousnads of new gun nuts were raised. Another point about Brit junk: the damn things will shoot well without too much effort.
The Snider and the WR and the Martini have very significant historical interest and while they represent some challanges to shoot, a trapdoor springfield or Allin conversion are just as balky and just as much fun.
Now, if you want to talk about REAL junk look at the French military...
Thanks for the time folks
Best
Al

[Todd Birch]

Ray - Al

The strength of the M-H action is legendary, but it's ergonomics are atrocious, and the .577-450 was not well regarded by British troops for it's horrendous recoil.
If you read up on it, you become aware that it was a 'stop gap' measure by reducing the .577 Snider round to .450. The foil wrapped cartridges gave no end of production and service problems. The round was probably at it's best with Kynoch cordite loads in drawn brass cases, and in actions other than M-H's.

The Snider conversion was again a means of utilizing large inventories of Enfield muzzle loaders, much as the US did with the .50-70 conversions of the Springfield rifled muskets post Civil War.

Like the US, the Brits went to the .45" bore size very quickly, and they came close to adopting the Boxer .450 in the M-H, a long straight round adapted by US ammo makers. It was deemed more expedient to chamber it in the .577-450.

Yes, Hollywood has done much to glamourize the guns of the British Empire with "Zulu", et al. It was a golden era of Colonialism, something you would think would be abhorrent to Americans, who fought a war to rid themselves of that very Colonial yoke!
Bear in mind as well, that British history records many ignominious defeats and military debacles as glorious victories for Queen and country;
Kipling's ode to the Martini-Henry and the Nordenfeldt notwithstanding.

As for the SMLE in .303, while it was current, it was cursed and reviled for it's springy rear locking action, sloppy headspace, cock-on-closing bolt, etc. It served well enough to be manufactured by the Aussies right into the mid-1950's before they adopted the FN FAL in 7.62mm.

Todd

[Ray Newman]

Todd: you raise some valid points about the M-H & many military rifles.

I don’t find the M-H ergonomics that problematic, but then again I don’t carry it & shoot it every day either….

Your comments about the Empire & how it treated disasters is interesting. ‘Spin Doctors’ aren’t new to the 21 century. Hind sight is always better.

But don’t ask a Scot ‘bout Colladden.

As an aside, I have a Canadian marked MH--Mk III dated 1884.

Butt stock is marked ‘DC’ in a diamond & ‘M&D‘, which I believe means Dominion of Canada, military & defense.

The other side of the butt is marked ‘RCA‘, ‘B‘, ‘1381‘. I presume the ‘1381’ is rack or weapon #. These stamps are at a right angle to the Enfield stock roundel & ea. stamped on a different line.

But what is the “RCA”? The closest unit I can find is RRCA--Royal Regiment Canadian Artillery.

[Kelley O. Roos]

When shooter37, said, "french junk," that reminded me of a show I watched on the Discovery Channel Saturday. It was about shooting cannons and they had this competition. The winner of the competition, who used a Parrot cannon, shot against a Canadian artillary unit. The Canadians used a french artillary piece, well guess who won. The Canadians didn't hit the target once and that Parrot Cannon crew hit it three times, with one shot in the bulls eye. The target was at 1000 yards, 8'wideX12' tall.

Kelley O.

[Todd Birch]

Ray

I had a Mk IV M-H long lever which I recently used as a partial trade on a Shiloh .50-70 Military Rifle. I got the best out of that deal! Supposedly the best of the breed, I was not much impressed with it's inner workings which looked crude.
It also had the usual stock repairs caused by recoil, suggesting that the design was lacking.

What the other guy really wanted was the chamber inserts I had for it - one would accept .45-70 cases and the other accepted 5-in-one blanks, .45 Colt, .44-40, .44 Mag. and .44 Spl. cases.

A good sight to check out is Jim Atkins at martinihenry.com (no hyphen).
Good pics and the guy is a wealth of M-H info and trivia.

Yes, the Brits had some excellent PR 'spin doctors' working for them over time to cover up some pretty incompetent military blunders. The only troops to ever crack into a British Army hollow square were African tribesmen. No European army ever succeeded in so doing.

You are right about the 'Diamond DC' marking it as Canadian issue. All rifles were so marked after 1867 as a gift from the Crown when we became a self governing Dominion instead of a Colony.
However, the 'MD' is for 'Militia and Defence'.

Following 1867, rifles were marked with the 'C /l\', with the /l\ (broad arrow) inside the 'C'. Prior to that, they had been marked with the ubiquitous 'WD/l\' (arrow above WD), the famous 'crows foot' of the War Department that was put on all crown property.
Sometimes the stamps appeared as 'D/l\C' and 'M&D' and appeared on bayonets as well as rifles.

'RCA' is for Royal Canadian Artillery. I presume that the 'B' on your rifle might mean Battery B of a particular Regiment of artillery.

By the way, that's Culloden, not Calladen. ...."whatever would the Queen think?"..... "Scots wha' ha' wi'h Wallace bled......" and all that.

Kelly - I have a book on Civil War experiences where a soldier recounts a shot at bell tower with a smooth bore cannon. The crew took it out with one round at 600 yards! That's shooting!


Todd

[Ray Newman]

While looking for something esle, I came acrosss the following article.

See the SPG “Black Powder Cartridge News “, issue #28, Winter 1999, re “Gun profiles: A Snider-Enfield Sporting Rifle.“ A short acrticle & a fe pictures of Snider Enfield sporter made by Frederick T. Baker of London, circa 1870.


The “Black Powder Cartridge News”, a quarterly periodical, is another BPCR related magazine that is well worth the subscription cost & the cost of buying the photo copied back issues is a worth-while investment.

http://www.blackpowderspg.com/