My first ever Ladder Test or throwing the bones!

Discussions of powders, bullets and loading information.

Moderators: Kirk, Lucinda

Post Reply
User avatar
Distant Thunder
Posts: 882
Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2006 11:46 am
Location: NE Wisconsin

My first ever Ladder Test or throwing the bones!

Post by Distant Thunder »

A while back TexasMac posted some information on ladder load testing. I, in humor posted this:
Throwing the Bones.jpg
I see the two practices being similar in some ways and I still think it's funny. Sorry, Wayne.

I recently read Rick Moritz's article in BLACK POWDER CARTRIDGE NEWS entitled "An Incremental Load Development Method". I feel Rick did a very good job of explaining how this method works and how to carry it out.

I decided to take a rifle I have been working with for a while now and see what this Ladder Load Testing could tell me. I can understand how this method could work with modern rifles but I had my doubts about it being an effective way to find an accurate load in a BPCR. My thinking is that the sample size is too small to reveal any useful information without repeating the test 2 or 3 times. It just seems to me that when you are dealing with a sport where the rifles/loads are pretty much somewhere around 2 MOA capable, one shot with each charge weight isn't enough to say much about potential accuracy.

If one shot happens to be at the top of its group and the next one happens to be at the bottom of its group they can be pretty close together or pretty far apart. How does that point to a sweet spot? I understand that a number consecutive of shots with increasing charge weights that clustered close together could point to a single charge weight in the middle that would minimize any small variations in the powder charge, but is a half a grain enough to see much vertical spread as a result and reveal the areas to avoid?
This is only one test but it does agree with what I have seen in my loading for this rifle over the past two years and I was surprised at how distinct the differences could be with only 1/2 a grain increase. It appears that the barrel whip can be clearly seen as it travels from the bottom to the top of its movement. I think I would have to do a wider spread to see the whip in more than one cycle and I still believe repeating the test once or twice would make things a little more sure.

This is my first ever Ladder Test done this way and I see enough good information to make me want to try this method again with other bullets and powders and perhaps rifles.
LADDER TEST 431520 Rev2 target.jpg
I would be interested in how other shooters with more experience using this method would read this test target. What are your thoughts on my results?

I made a graph and I'm not really a graph person, not very good at making them, but it does show what the target shows if you like graphs.
LADDER TEST 431520 Rev2.jpg
The bottom line for me is that I see some useful information from this method shooting only 11 shots, I recorded both of my 83.0 grain shots for 12 total. It didn't take much time to shoot the test and I'm sure the setup would go better the next time and I would save time and ammo there. This first time I had some difficulties getting set up and paper where I wanted to be.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Jim Kluskens
aka Distant Thunder
Kurt
Posts: 8428
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2005 10:28 pm
Location: Not Far enough NW in Illinois

Re: My first ever Ladder Test or throwing the bones!

Post by Kurt »

Jim,

I used up a little over a brick of primers shooting test loads with the .38-50 Hepburn. These test loads are making me scratch my head trying to figure out how a 2" group shot one day and the next day it's a shot gun pattern of 6-7" using the same load and components under the same identical conditions.
I personally like to do the progressive load tests with 2 shots fired of each and the two best loads followed up with 5 shots and even 10 like I would shoot for a bank of silhouette.
I feel the problem shooting ladder loads is that unseen condition changes and sighting errors especially shooting at longer ranges can throw a wrench in the results.
Sometimes I wonder if it would be better shooting 2 shots at a closer range to eliminate sight and condition errors. You can still see the spread of the shots but just closer together and knowing the wind changes and seeing the sights.
My personal visions when I shoot as close as 200 yards at a 2" spot or even a 3" that My setoff is not perfect every shot fired.
The reason a dog has so many friends is because he wags his tail instead of his tongue.

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"Winston Churchill
User avatar
Distant Thunder
Posts: 882
Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2006 11:46 am
Location: NE Wisconsin

Re: My first ever Ladder Test or throwing the bones!

Post by Distant Thunder »

The way Rick explained his version of ladder loads it's all about the vertical. I had some wind when I shot test this morning, about 10 mph. It was mostly right to left and you can see that in the test. There were also a few times the wind reversed left to right and that shows up as well.

Since I only intended to measure the vertical spread I paid no attention to the wind, I think actually helped by spreading the shots left and right a little. Without the wind I think I would have lost too many shots in other holes. It was getting a little crowded toward the end of the 12 shots.

This actually the load I have the most confidence in, 86.0 grain, and the test seems to show 87 grains to be the middle of the sweet spot.

It started out a little rough this morning because I was shooting with my new DZ 8X scope and I had to get new sight settings. The scope worked very well and I could see where each shot broke very well, they were not all perfect but were all good breaks.

There seems to have developed a problem with my old scope and I was having fits trying to get 3 shots in a group. When I switched scopes things got a whole lot better instantly.

I'll need to use this method again, maybe a few times, to see for sure but it seems to be a good way to find the best powder charge for a load without running 20 or 30 rounds down range. 11 shots pretty well shows what might otherwise take many times that amount. The way things are these days that is a good thing!
Jim Kluskens
aka Distant Thunder
User avatar
Distant Thunder
Posts: 882
Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2006 11:46 am
Location: NE Wisconsin

Re: My first ever Ladder Test or throwing the bones!

Post by Distant Thunder »

I just noticed that when I posted the target picture the lowest shot, the one with 85.0 grains, got clipped off. It was centered left to right but is about 1/2 to 3/4" off the bottom of the picture. That hole formed my zero baseline for all the other shots because it was the lowest in the group.

The way I read this target the 86.0 to 88.0 grains is the place to be, with 87.0 being right in the middle.
Jim Kluskens
aka Distant Thunder
Kurt
Posts: 8428
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2005 10:28 pm
Location: Not Far enough NW in Illinois

Re: My first ever Ladder Test or throwing the bones!

Post by Kurt »

Well head and tail wind changes in velocity will effect verticals.
Here is an example what I was saying about shooting closer to eliminate the conditions and still see a change in the groups.
This target was at 100 yards +- a little and I just move the scope settings. I was getting ready for Lodi using the .38 to make sure I was getting the pit safety velocity with the bullet weight using c couple different loads.
If you look at the 12 o-clock I used Arnies hard alloy and the center I used a softer alloy to get more weight. powder load and primer was the same.
One can see even shooting closer eliminating errors one see the difference in loads.

When I do my 2 shot test loads I use a separate target and I use the string measurement checking the spreads to eliminate the clutter.
IMG_0823 2 7.22.54 PM.jpeg
The reason a dog has so many friends is because he wags his tail instead of his tongue.

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"Winston Churchill
User avatar
Distant Thunder
Posts: 882
Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2006 11:46 am
Location: NE Wisconsin

Re: My first ever Ladder Test or throwing the bones!

Post by Distant Thunder »

Those are some pretty nice 100 yard groups!
Jim Kluskens
aka Distant Thunder
Kurt
Posts: 8428
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2005 10:28 pm
Location: Not Far enough NW in Illinois

Re: My first ever Ladder Test or throwing the bones!

Post by Kurt »

Jim, yes they are, but unfortunately that rifle wont do it every time out and it seems like it's going down hill to the point that I will rebarrel it and do away with that .110" freebore it has.
The reason a dog has so many friends is because he wags his tail instead of his tongue.

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"Winston Churchill
SSShooter
Posts: 2910
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:06 am
Location: Jersey Shore

Re: My first ever Ladder Test or throwing the bones!

Post by SSShooter »

Just shot my 1st "Rick Moritz" ladder test yesterday with my 40-65 and BACo's 380gr DEPP bullet.
Next step is to shoot a coupe of 10-shot groups with WW & R-P case loads. Definitely looks promising.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Glenn
TexasMac
Posts: 2364
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2007 5:29 pm
Location: Central Texas
Contact:

Re: My first ever Ladder Test or throwing the bones!

Post by TexasMac »

Distant Thunder wrote: Sat Aug 27, 2022 2:47 pm A while back TexasMac posted some information on ladder load testing. I, in humor posted this:
Throwing the Bones.jpg
I see the two practices being similar in some ways and I still think it's funny. Sorry, Wayne.
Jim, you are forgiven. I'll have the Gypsy remove the curse on you. :lol:

Wayne
NRA Life (Benefactor & President's Council) Member, TSRA Life Member, NSSF Member, Author & Publisher of the Browning BPCR book
http://www.texas-mac.com
User avatar
Distant Thunder
Posts: 882
Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2006 11:46 am
Location: NE Wisconsin

Re: My first ever Ladder Test or throwing the bones!

Post by Distant Thunder »

Thank you, Wayne for understanding and talking to the gypsy! :D

So, now my score will improve? Maybe? :lol:
Jim Kluskens
aka Distant Thunder
User avatar
Distant Thunder
Posts: 882
Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2006 11:46 am
Location: NE Wisconsin

Re: My first ever Ladder Test or throwing the bones!

Post by Distant Thunder »

Glenn,

I will be watching to see how your 10-shot groups look and if your ladder loads hold true.

I plan to follow up with a 10-shot group or two to see the same thing with my results. The real test would be at greater distances.

I also plan to do some ladder loads with other bullets and powders in my .44-77. This will be an interesting test of this method for developing the best load for a given rifle/cartridge/powder/bullet.

My vertical spread was not nearly as big as yours, but I have no idea what that means. I expected more than I got.
Jim Kluskens
aka Distant Thunder
SSShooter
Posts: 2910
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:06 am
Location: Jersey Shore

Re: My first ever Ladder Test or throwing the bones!

Post by SSShooter »

It will be a couple of weeks as I have to cast and load.
Glenn
User avatar
Distant Thunder
Posts: 882
Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2006 11:46 am
Location: NE Wisconsin

Re: My first ever Ladder Test or throwing the bones!

Post by Distant Thunder »

I know some do not believe this method of load development works or tells the shooter much about what an accurate load should be. I would include myself in that group. I am not convinced the small sample size can tell me enough to be able to say this charge right here is where I need to be.

That is why I ran this first test with a bullet that I had already found to be a good choice for my rifle and I was sure to start below and continue up and over a charge weight I knew was pretty good.

The bullet started life as a BACO 431520, but has had two revisions done to fine tune it to my rifle. As I have mentioned earlier in this thread this Shiloh was rebarreled by Shiloh using a Krieger 17-twist barrel and chambered with Shiloh's standard chamber reamer. The first revision was to increase the diameter to .433 to give me a better fit in the bore and allow the use of either S. C. 55W or my 9# paper. With the 9# I have to size the patched bullets to .438" and as it turns out doing so gives me the best accuracy of the two papers.

I still didn't get the accuracy I wanted beyond 300 yards when the wind was up. So revision 2 shortened the bullet from 1.460" long to 1.430". The thinking here is that it gives me just a little more stability and velocity to hopefully hold up in the wind better. This 2nd revision I just did recently and time will tell if it helps.

That is the bullet I used in this ladder load test, BACO 431520 R2 and the two revisions then make it effectively a 433508 bullet.

The powder charge I had settled on from many, many shots down range and groups on paper was 86.0 grains. When I ran this ladder load test I found it interesting that it showed 86.0 through 88.0 grains was a sweet spot. The center of that sweet spot being 87.0 grains.

So having fired exactly one shot at 220 yards with 87.0 grains of powder under the experimental bullet I loaded 60 rounds and headed to a small local gong match this morning. The results of the match will not be known for a few days, but I did manage to hit 31 out of 40. Based on my recent history at this match with this rifle that is not a bad score for me.

We had some really wild mirage and gusty headwinds at the match. I was a little disappointed that I only hit 2 of 5 offhand at 200 yards, 3 would have been better. I cleaned the 300 yard gongs. I made a couple of over corrections at 400 yards and missed 4 at that distance. At 500 yards, which I shot in the stronger headwinds, I missed only 2 slipping those shots just over the gongs.

For the most part and considering these are gongs the accuracy of this 87.0 grain load was very good and the bullet held up better in the strong gusty headwind having been shortened.

One match probably doesn't prove anything for sure about this system of ladder loads, but it does have my attention. I don't believe I have ever done this well with a load that was based almost entirely on one shot. I say almost entirely because the ladder load test, as I understand it, is designed to show a range of charge weights that have very little vertical spread resulting from barrel vibration. In this test there were 5 shots that suggested 87.0 grains would be a good place for more testing. If time had allowed I would have followed up the ladder loads with one or more 10-shot groups at 220 yards with 87.0 grains to see what the vertical spread was. Based on the ladder loads there would be very little vertical spread and the group would be pretty tight in general.

I will next shoot a 10-shot group with 87.0 grains and see what that shows. I think it will support the ladder load test results. Unfortunately my match season is pretty well over for this year and any testing at greater distances will have to wait until next year. I can shoot as much as I want on my 220 yard home range so I plan to run some more of these ladder loads with this rifle using other bullets and at least one other powder. I am hoping that if nothing else this proves that this system of load development can quickly point to what powder charge I should be working with when trying a new bullet or a new lot of powder or even a new rifle.
Jim Kluskens
aka Distant Thunder
SSShooter
Posts: 2910
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:06 am
Location: Jersey Shore

Re: My first ever Ladder Test or throwing the bones!

Post by SSShooter »

Good info, Jim.

Will be shooting 2x 10-shot groups with 68gr in an R-P case at 200yd & 300yd followed by the same thing with 70gr of powder in a Win case at 600yd this weekend, all with the BACo 380gr DEPP wrapped in 55w paper in my 16" twist 30" long GM 'X' barrel. Will be wiping with BACo bore-pigs wetted with 10-1 water-cutting oil, running one dry Arsenal patch and bore mop for the chamber between shots. Will also be shooting the same groups with my standard GG loads to compare. Should be interesting.
Glenn
Post Reply