Hello! Newb here

Talk with other Shiloh Sharps shooters.

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Luke
Posts: 416
Joined: Tue Sep 24, 2002 12:26 pm
Location: Central Missouri

Re: Hello! Newb here

Post by Luke »

I moved the "Trends" thread up to the top, it's a damn good read. But you need to read all of it, lots of change over the years. Also, simply scroll thru the Black Powder forum below and pick out threads of interest. LOTS of info there. Check out "Drag, twist and transonic flight."
"
Limber Up!
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Lumpy Grits
Posts: 7675
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2003 7:58 pm
Location: Springfield, Missouri-U.S.A. Earth

Re: Hello! Newb here

Post by Lumpy Grits »

WELCOME :!:
I suggest you consider a Hadley Eye Cup for your sight.
"Hav'n you along, is like loose'n two good men"
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PhilRich
Posts: 71
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2017 4:06 pm

Re: Hello! Newb here

Post by PhilRich »

A Atwood wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 11:23 am
PhilRich wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 11:18 am Do your search using your browser off site and tag the search with shiloh forum. That's a nice looking rifle!! The forum search feature just doesn't work correctly.
How do I tag the site?
Please give me an example of how to google search something like “bullet mould” in the Shiloh Forum. I’d appreciate it!

Thanks
ARN
I should have said use your browser search state what you're looking for and then add the words shiloh forum. That's how I do it.
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Don McDowell
Posts: 7633
Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2007 2:04 pm
Location: Ft. Laramie Wy
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Re: Hello! Newb here

Post by Don McDowell »

A Atwood wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 6:22 pm [

Will this .459/525gr be stable with a 1:18 twist?
Thanks
4 different rifles shot by 3 shooters of varying skill levels testing at 1000 yards results say yea it is
The copy of the original postel may be a slight bit better from a 45-70 but either one will serve well
AKA Donny Ray Rockslinger :?
horsefly
Posts: 265
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 8:59 pm
Location: West Texas

Re: Hello! Newb here

Post by horsefly »

Good morning, Board;

Some of y'all may be tired of seeing this piece, but this is why I wrote it "back then". AND ... it's everything I know on the subject and I'm too darned lazy to write all this out again.

--------------------

Some of y'all may remember me ... most of you probably don't. No matter. I don't compete anymore for a number of different reasons, but I do keep up with this forum and enjoy reading it. However, something has bothered me for a long time. Usually when a new guy comes on and asks beginners type questions, he is bombarded with all kinds of everybody's latest "gotta do's". Ya gotta do this or ya gotta do that ... and you probably don't gotta do most of it. If any.

So here, I want to sketch out the minimum differences about how to load a black powder cartridge versus loading one with flavorless powder. I want to get the new guy shooting. Then the rest of you can have your way with him.

Now, I enjoy and do a lot of those things, too. But most of those things are not necessary to someone who wants to learn how to load a perfectly serviceable black powder cartridge. What concerns me is that deluge of stinky stuff that runs away at least some well intended beginners. If we make this thing look like black magic and tell folks that all their previous experience is worthless and all this other stuff is absolutely necessary, how many will join us? How many will grow into nuts like us who enjoy all those "gotta do's" that you don't really gotta do?

Would you have started this if you had thought that you had to have or do all the things that us nuts on this board love to tell each other all about and maybe do? Do I hear a few honest no's or maybe not's out there?

My assumptions are that the new person can successfully load a centerfire cartridge with flavorless powder and now wants to load a cartridge that is normally loaded with black powder and a lead bullet. Again ... these are the minimum things that are necessarily different about loading a good black powder cartridge. You can argue all you want to, but I want to describe generally accepted procedures.

CASE SIZING:
You can do it or not. As long as the case or resulting cartridge will chamber, case sizing is not necessary. It's the neck that needs the attention. Forget about "hard cast" ... please. The proper bullet is soft and the case neck should be sized (or not) only enough to hold the bullet ... not to deform it. Some folks (me, too) will seat the bullet by pushing it in under thumb pressure. The neck should never be tight enough to scrape or deform the sides of the bullet.

Others seat in a die and want a little (some) seating friction. Something loaded for hunting or carrying may need to be secured. If so, crimp it after it's seated. Sizing die makers always make their dies to reduce the neck either too much or waaay too much. So either don't size or else expand the neck enough so the bullet doesn't get hurt ... however you choose to seat it.

BULLET:
As mentioned above: use soft bullets meant for black powder loading. Hard bullets usually cause leading problems because they don't expand and seal the bore quickly enough. Then hot gas can blow by them and cut the bullet and/or deposit lead in the bore. Grease groove bullets should be soft and lubricated with a lubricant designed for black powder. Other lubes will shoot, but they're generally very hard to clean and seldom shoot well. Proper black powder lube should never have petroleum products in it (Remember ... generally accepted procedures).

Paper patch bullets are a somewhat different animal but you should still treat them carefully (as above) because they are soft, too.
If you are loading black powder and somebody offers you some really great "hard cast" bullets, call them dirty names and then run like hell. You don't want anything to do with hard bullets. Please understand that you are not shoving a jacketed bullet down the throat of a tightly sized .357 case.

WADS:
This is one of the confusing things for many beginning bp shooters. You don't use wads in white powder loads so why use them in black ... and if you do, how? Now, let's pony up and be real honest here: I don't know why. Wads have always been used in black powder and that may be why we still do it. We do it because we do it. Is it a holdover from patches wrapped around a ball? I still don't know. But it is the accepted practice so let's talk about it like we don't know better.

Wads are usually cardboard or plastic (LDPE) and are placed between the powder and bullet. A few shooters have very successfully used waxed paper and/or newspaper as wads. A few use none at all. Historically, wads have been stacked to take up extra space inside the case and then there are those who use grease wads. Grease wads and stacked wads have been mentioned and now they will be ignored. The usual practice is to place a cardboard or LDPE wad between the powder and bullet.

One note of caution here: don't ever use a wad unless the powder holds it firmly against the base of the bullet. If there is a wad with space ahead of it, it becomes a projectile inside the case when the powder ignites. Then there is a bullet blocking the bore ahead if it.

Some say the cardboard or LDPE wad protects the base of the bullet from the powder at ignition. Maybe. A wad placed on top of the powder as soon as it is in the case does help prevent spills and holds the powder in place for compression.

So you can load successfully without wads, but history and precedence says do it.

COMPRESSION:
Powder compression is probably the biggest difference facing the new bp loader. That part is sure 'nuff different from loading white powder. Black powder is extremely sensitive to its position inside the case. So the best way insure sure its position is to fill the case "plumb up". That also makes sure the wad is held against the base of the bullet.

So far as compression, I feel that compression is simply a byproduct of using enough powder. Black powder is not nearly as energetic as the white stuff so we can get by with filling the case up and going at it. The best load will be somewhere between having the powder just touch the wad up to (in my opinion) having it compressed as much as 0.200 or maybe 0.250 in a .45-70 case. Longer cases can compress more ... shorter ones, less. There are no hard and fast rules ... just guidelines.

To work up a load, choose a cartridge length and start with enough powder to touch the wad. Then keeping that length, increase powder (and as a result, the compression) as you work up. There is no magic amount and compression is not a part of the load recipe. In other words, do not try to get a particular amount of compression as a goal.

You will need something to push the powder and wad down so there is room to seat the bullet. Here you will be told, "don't use the bullet" ... "don't use the bullet". I will tell you, "don't use the bullet". Pushing on the end of the bullet hard enough to compress powder can squash it enough to make its diameter increase. If you don't push on your bullet hard enough to swell it out, have at it. Just understand what you're doing.

Here, you really do need a special tool. You can make a dummy bullet out of aluminum or steel or anything else hard enough. Load your dummy into the case and seat it. Then take it out and go on to the next one. Obviously the dummy has to be small enough to remove and place in the next case.

The easiest thing to do is buy and use a compression die with the correct stem in it. Compress the powder and then seat the bullet against the wad.

There it is.

I'm really interested to see the reaction to this piece. I firmly believe this is one good way to load a black powder cartridge with the least departure from loading with flavorless powder. Hopefully it will help a newbie or two make an easy transition from loading that other stuff.
So the most significant differences in loading are sizing the case, use a soft bullet, wads and compression. Let's catch the newbies first. After they're caught, y'all can pour that other stuff all over them!

Y'all be good;
horsefly
A Atwood
Posts: 31
Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2022 1:30 pm

Re: Hello! Newb here

Post by A Atwood »

horsefly wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 1:35 pm Good morning, Board;

Some of y'all may be tired of seeing this piece, but this is why I wrote it "back then". AND ... it's everything I know on the subject and I'm too darned lazy to write all this out again.

--------------------

Some of y'all may remember me ... most of you probably don't. No matter. I don't compete anymore for a number of different reasons, but I do keep up with this forum and enjoy reading it. However, something has bothered me for a long time. Usually when a new guy comes on and asks beginners type questions, he is bombarded with all kinds of everybody's latest "gotta do's". Ya gotta do this or ya gotta do that ... and you probably don't gotta do most of it. If any.

So here, I want to sketch out the minimum differences about how to load a black powder cartridge versus loading one with flavorless powder. I want to get the new guy shooting. Then the rest of you can have your way with him.

Now, I enjoy and do a lot of those things, too. But most of those things are not necessary to someone who wants to learn how to load a perfectly serviceable black powder cartridge. What concerns me is that deluge of stinky stuff that runs away at least some well intended beginners. If we make this thing look like black magic and tell folks that all their previous experience is worthless and all this other stuff is absolutely necessary, how many will join us? How many will grow into nuts like us who enjoy all those "gotta do's" that you don't really gotta do?

Would you have started this if you had thought that you had to have or do all the things that us nuts on this board love to tell each other all about and maybe do? Do I hear a few honest no's or maybe not's out there?

My assumptions are that the new person can successfully load a centerfire cartridge with flavorless powder and now wants to load a cartridge that is normally loaded with black powder and a lead bullet. Again ... these are the minimum things that are necessarily different about loading a good black powder cartridge. You can argue all you want to, but I want to describe generally accepted procedures.

CASE SIZING:
You can do it or not. As long as the case or resulting cartridge will chamber, case sizing is not necessary. It's the neck that needs the attention. Forget about "hard cast" ... please. The proper bullet is soft and the case neck should be sized (or not) only enough to hold the bullet ... not to deform it. Some folks (me, too) will seat the bullet by pushing it in under thumb pressure. The neck should never be tight enough to scrape or deform the sides of the bullet.

Others seat in a die and want a little (some) seating friction. Something loaded for hunting or carrying may need to be secured. If so, crimp it after it's seated. Sizing die makers always make their dies to reduce the neck either too much or waaay too much. So either don't size or else expand the neck enough so the bullet doesn't get hurt ... however you choose to seat it.

BULLET:
As mentioned above: use soft bullets meant for black powder loading. Hard bullets usually cause leading problems because they don't expand and seal the bore quickly enough. Then hot gas can blow by them and cut the bullet and/or deposit lead in the bore. Grease groove bullets should be soft and lubricated with a lubricant designed for black powder. Other lubes will shoot, but they're generally very hard to clean and seldom shoot well. Proper black powder lube should never have petroleum products in it (Remember ... generally accepted procedures).

Paper patch bullets are a somewhat different animal but you should still treat them carefully (as above) because they are soft, too.
If you are loading black powder and somebody offers you some really great "hard cast" bullets, call them dirty names and then run like hell. You don't want anything to do with hard bullets. Please understand that you are not shoving a jacketed bullet down the throat of a tightly sized .357 case.

WADS:
This is one of the confusing things for many beginning bp shooters. You don't use wads in white powder loads so why use them in black ... and if you do, how? Now, let's pony up and be real honest here: I don't know why. Wads have always been used in black powder and that may be why we still do it. We do it because we do it. Is it a holdover from patches wrapped around a ball? I still don't know. But it is the accepted practice so let's talk about it like we don't know better.

Wads are usually cardboard or plastic (LDPE) and are placed between the powder and bullet. A few shooters have very successfully used waxed paper and/or newspaper as wads. A few use none at all. Historically, wads have been stacked to take up extra space inside the case and then there are those who use grease wads. Grease wads and stacked wads have been mentioned and now they will be ignored. The usual practice is to place a cardboard or LDPE wad between the powder and bullet.

One note of caution here: don't ever use a wad unless the powder holds it firmly against the base of the bullet. If there is a wad with space ahead of it, it becomes a projectile inside the case when the powder ignites. Then there is a bullet blocking the bore ahead if it.

Some say the cardboard or LDPE wad protects the base of the bullet from the powder at ignition. Maybe. A wad placed on top of the powder as soon as it is in the case does help prevent spills and holds the powder in place for compression.

So you can load successfully without wads, but history and precedence says do it.

COMPRESSION:
Powder compression is probably the biggest difference facing the new bp loader. That part is sure 'nuff different from loading white powder. Black powder is extremely sensitive to its position inside the case. So the best way insure sure its position is to fill the case "plumb up". That also makes sure the wad is held against the base of the bullet.

So far as compression, I feel that compression is simply a byproduct of using enough powder. Black powder is not nearly as energetic as the white stuff so we can get by with filling the case up and going at it. The best load will be somewhere between having the powder just touch the wad up to (in my opinion) having it compressed as much as 0.200 or maybe 0.250 in a .45-70 case. Longer cases can compress more ... shorter ones, less. There are no hard and fast rules ... just guidelines.

To work up a load, choose a cartridge length and start with enough powder to touch the wad. Then keeping that length, increase powder (and as a result, the compression) as you work up. There is no magic amount and compression is not a part of the load recipe. In other words, do not try to get a particular amount of compression as a goal.

You will need something to push the powder and wad down so there is room to seat the bullet. Here you will be told, "don't use the bullet" ... "don't use the bullet". I will tell you, "don't use the bullet". Pushing on the end of the bullet hard enough to compress powder can squash it enough to make its diameter increase. If you don't push on your bullet hard enough to swell it out, have at it. Just understand what you're doing.

Here, you really do need a special tool. You can make a dummy bullet out of aluminum or steel or anything else hard enough. Load your dummy into the case and seat it. Then take it out and go on to the next one. Obviously the dummy has to be small enough to remove and place in the next case.

The easiest thing to do is buy and use a compression die with the correct stem in it. Compress the powder and then seat the bullet against the wad.

There it is.

I'm really interested to see the reaction to this piece. I firmly believe this is one good way to load a black powder cartridge with the least departure from loading with flavorless powder. Hopefully it will help a newbie or two make an easy transition from loading that other stuff.
So the most significant differences in loading are sizing the case, use a soft bullet, wads and compression. Let's catch the newbies first. After they're caught, y'all can pour that other stuff all over them!

Y'all be good;
horsefly
Thanks for the info!
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