PP Bullet size

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omgb
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PP Bullet size

Post by omgb »

What size to you guys typically use for the bullet you intend to patch? My Sharps prefers a .459 bullet when I use a cast and lubed bullet. I was thinking maybe .453 would work.
Reece Talley
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ian45662
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Re: PP Bullet size

Post by ian45662 »

.445-.446 (depending on actual bore diameter). Paper should be Seth cole 55w with that size projectile.
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Don McDowell
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Re: PP Bullet size

Post by Don McDowell »

I like to start with a bullet .004 under bore size when using parallel sided bullets, and bore diameter diameter with dual diameter bullets, before patching.
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bohemianway
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Re: PP Bullet size

Post by bohemianway »

I have more detailed questions:

1) for current Shiloh 45-70 (0.446?) and 50-90 (0.496?) and assuming a KAL mold, 55w, and pure lead and not wanting to experiment but get it very close first time:
a) what nose T-300, T-250, T-200? And why?
b) or one of the other tapered options? And why?

2) For originals that have larger bore diameters is it reasonable to do additional wraps or thicker paper?


Sorry for hijacking but it may get more useful info,
Charles
Kenny Wasserburger
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Re: PP Bullet size

Post by Kenny Wasserburger »

Ombg,

A better question is do you want to patch to groove or patch to bore diameter.

Kenny W.
We'll raise up our Glasses against Evil Forces, Singing, Whiskey for my men, Beer for my horses.

Wyoming Territory Sharps Shooter
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omgb
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Re: PP Bullet size

Post by omgb »

Well, in my Enfield musket I patch to grove diameter. I get better accuracy that way. Paul Matthews is saying it depends on the individual gun but that his best performance was patching to grove diameter. (The Paper Jacket) I have not done much of this for my 45-90 so, I figured I'd ask. As I said, lubed lead bullets shoot best from my Sharps at .459 From my buddy's Trapdoor he needs .461. So, that's why I'm asking
Reece Talley
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Coltsmoke
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Re: PP Bullet size

Post by Coltsmoke »

You better get your paper first and figure out what 2 wraps of it will be.
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Kenny Wasserburger
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Re: PP Bullet size

Post by Kenny Wasserburger »

bohemianway wrote: Sun Oct 16, 2022 7:10 pm I have more detailed questions:

1) for current Shiloh 45-70 (0.446?) and 50-90 (0.496?) and assuming a KAL mold, 55w, and pure lead and not wanting to experiment but get it very close first time:
a) what nose T-300, T-250, T-200? And why?
b) or one of the other tapered options? And why?

2) For originals that have larger bore diameters is it reasonable to do additional wraps or thicker paper?


Sorry for hijacking but it may get more useful info,
Charles
Do not use more than two wraps.

Why pure lead, cause this ain’t a muzzle loader.

Kenny W
We'll raise up our Glasses against Evil Forces, Singing, Whiskey for my men, Beer for my horses.

Wyoming Territory Sharps Shooter
Kenny Wasserburger
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Re: PP Bullet size

Post by Kenny Wasserburger »

omgb wrote: Mon Oct 17, 2022 12:00 pm Well, in my Enfield musket I patch to grove diameter. I get better accuracy that way. Paul Matthews is saying it depends on the individual gun but that his best performance was patching to grove diameter. (The Paper Jacket) I have not done much of this for my 45-90 so, I figured I'd ask. As I said, lubed lead bullets shoot best from my Sharps at .459 From my buddy's Trapdoor he needs .461. So, that's why I'm asking
Forget anything in that Paul Mathew’s book.

He shot pyrodex because he couldn’t ever get black powder to shoot for him.

Better sources than that right here on this forum, folks that have done very well with patched to bore diameter on this forum. Just like the old timers did it.

Kenny W.
We'll raise up our Glasses against Evil Forces, Singing, Whiskey for my men, Beer for my horses.

Wyoming Territory Sharps Shooter
gunlaker
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Re: PP Bullet size

Post by gunlaker »

Most of my rifles work well with .446" and Seth Cole 55W. I would also get a Lee push through sizer right at bore diameter to push the bullets through before you seat them.

The Paper Jacket is interesting to read, but since he wrote that book people have figured out how to really make PP bullets work. Like Kenny said, you can find that all on this forum.

Chris.
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Re: PP Bullet size

Post by TAA »

Although not a size question, but is there an alloy that works “best” for paper patch bullets? 40 cal 2 1/2 OE 1.5 powder.

Thanks!

Tom
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Don McDowell
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Re: PP Bullet size

Post by Don McDowell »

20-1 and harder
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DaveC
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Re: PP Bullet size

Post by DaveC »

I’ve gotten good groups (1.5 MOA and under) at “midrange” in .45-70 Shilohs with bullets from 0.441” to 0.443” nominal diameter, wrapped with two layers of tracing, graph or vellum-type paper of 0.0015-0.0020” although I prefer the 0.0015” thickness. I measure the thickness in the paper store with a micrometer, turning the thimble down hard to compress it. No “feather touch,” like measuring metal stuff. Crank that thimble down!

Target bullets with aerodynamic noses need to be just hard enough to slug up to groove diameter on firing without the nose slumping to one side or the other. If you really, absolutely have to use pure lead, I would recommend the bluntest, shortest round nose design that you can find, and some slippage in the notion that you’re going to “get it right the first time out.” Not to say that you might not surprise yourself (rifles are individuals and some people are lucky), but usually even the expert grease-groove loaders experience more-or-less of a learning curve.

Matthews’ book was kind of confusing because he bounces from bore to groove diameter and from black to smokeless loadings. One thing shines through, though—he never fired a paper-patch bullet at any midrange or long-range target. His loads were for maximum expansion in deer, at typical Eastern woods ranges.

Matthews’ and other paper-patch instruction books only guarantee “hunting accuracy,” which to me (anyway) means 4”/100yds. If you want to match or outdo grease groove bullets on rams, gongs or long-range bullseyes, you’ll need to digest the paper patch writings on this site, and the Historic Shooting and Cast Boolits websites. Lotta good stuff there, well worth printing out and collecting into binders.
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Cort
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Re: PP Bullet size

Post by Cort »

omgb wrote: Sun Oct 16, 2022 5:55 pm What size to you guys typically use for the bullet you intend to patch? My Sharps prefers a .459 bullet when I use a cast and lubed bullet. I was thinking maybe .453 would work.
Kenny has already responded. I will take the opportunity to say this, PM him and ask him to purchase a copy of his book. It's my bible on paper patching. Kenny is the GOD of ppb and has the pedigree to back it up.
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Re: PP Bullet size

Post by opencountry »

I thought I'd add my 2 cents worth because I've had such good luck shooting pp bullets in both my Shiloh 45-110's, and my Shiloh 45-90. I've chosen the traditional method of pp'ing. In the past when BACO had an abundance of 100% cotton paper I bought a lot of it. My bullet is from Jim at BACO, 'Jim 444540M', cast 16-1. I first size the bullet to .443", bringing the patched bullet up to .448" diameter, when double-wrapped. The loaded round chambers nicely, snug.
Btw, I've also tried using 100% paper to patch with (also from BACO), and it also wraps to .448". Convenient. And, gives the same results on target.

If I was ever to run out of my stock of 9-pound paper I would have no hesitation in following Kenny Wasserberger's method of patching with the Seth Cole tracing paper.

Robert
Beware of the man that owns one rifle.
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