Patching to groove
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Patching to groove
I spent a lot of time the last couple months going thru the archives of Shiloh and other BP forums looking at Paper Patch threads.
One common thread I saw was someone new to paper patching coming on a site and saying they had a PP mould that threw a bullet of a given dia ( .450-.454) and wondering if they could patch them up and shoot them.
Of course the most common answer was, “you need a bullet between .444 and 446 for it to work”
which is fair enough advice for someone starting out with no mould. There are a lot more data, resources and people shooting that style to get advice from.
However, if someone already has a mould, there is no reason not to try it, and expect good results
The second most common answer was, “you have to have one that is about .450 and patched to .457 so it isn’t too tight in the barrel which would squish the paper to much and cause finning”.
All of this without asking what the barrel/chamber dimensions are and whether or not it has any significant amount of freebore.
Of course everyone knows you have to have a special PP chamber to shoot paper patch bullets, a standard one with a 45º transition just wouldn’t work so they were just SOL if they had a standard chamber.
I thought I’d share a few of my experiences with Patching to Groove for the last 10+/- years.
My .454 dia moulds have shot well in the 4 different rifles.
A Browning 45-90 with a 12.75º transition, a .150 long freebore
A Browning 45-110 with a custom barrel with 45º transition and no freebore
A Wesson #1 45-100 with a 45º transition and approx.2 freebore
and a Shiloh 45-70 that I never did a chamber cast on.
I used 12.5-1 alloy and Staedtler 8 lb paper with black Powder in 3 of them and an antimony alloy with BH209 and 8 lb Staedtler paper in the Shiloh. The only requirement was that the dry wrapped bullet fit smoothly in the unsized case. I never took into consideration the groove dia of the barrel when making the loads.
The one gun the .454 mould does not work in is the Bull Barrel Shiloh 45 2 7/8. The chamber is just small enough that I can’t seat the bullet in a fired case. I bought a .452 sizer die but it only reduces the bullet to .453 and I can just barely get a bullet seated with 7 lb paper and then run thru a 459 sizer. A.458 sizer tears the paper. Even loading it that closed to the edge, it shoots very well with its 45º transition.
I have no experience with .450 or .451 moulds, but they are not a requirement as stated by some earlier, altho they should perform reasonably well when patched with thicker paper, or used when little or no fouling control is needed for hunting.
Others may have completely different experiences, but those are mine. Hopefully Gert chimes in with some of his experiences with different size bullets/patches since we seem to be the only two still shooting Groove dia bullets as our SOP.
One common thread I saw was someone new to paper patching coming on a site and saying they had a PP mould that threw a bullet of a given dia ( .450-.454) and wondering if they could patch them up and shoot them.
Of course the most common answer was, “you need a bullet between .444 and 446 for it to work”
which is fair enough advice for someone starting out with no mould. There are a lot more data, resources and people shooting that style to get advice from.
However, if someone already has a mould, there is no reason not to try it, and expect good results
The second most common answer was, “you have to have one that is about .450 and patched to .457 so it isn’t too tight in the barrel which would squish the paper to much and cause finning”.
All of this without asking what the barrel/chamber dimensions are and whether or not it has any significant amount of freebore.
Of course everyone knows you have to have a special PP chamber to shoot paper patch bullets, a standard one with a 45º transition just wouldn’t work so they were just SOL if they had a standard chamber.
I thought I’d share a few of my experiences with Patching to Groove for the last 10+/- years.
My .454 dia moulds have shot well in the 4 different rifles.
A Browning 45-90 with a 12.75º transition, a .150 long freebore
A Browning 45-110 with a custom barrel with 45º transition and no freebore
A Wesson #1 45-100 with a 45º transition and approx.2 freebore
and a Shiloh 45-70 that I never did a chamber cast on.
I used 12.5-1 alloy and Staedtler 8 lb paper with black Powder in 3 of them and an antimony alloy with BH209 and 8 lb Staedtler paper in the Shiloh. The only requirement was that the dry wrapped bullet fit smoothly in the unsized case. I never took into consideration the groove dia of the barrel when making the loads.
The one gun the .454 mould does not work in is the Bull Barrel Shiloh 45 2 7/8. The chamber is just small enough that I can’t seat the bullet in a fired case. I bought a .452 sizer die but it only reduces the bullet to .453 and I can just barely get a bullet seated with 7 lb paper and then run thru a 459 sizer. A.458 sizer tears the paper. Even loading it that closed to the edge, it shoots very well with its 45º transition.
I have no experience with .450 or .451 moulds, but they are not a requirement as stated by some earlier, altho they should perform reasonably well when patched with thicker paper, or used when little or no fouling control is needed for hunting.
Others may have completely different experiences, but those are mine. Hopefully Gert chimes in with some of his experiences with different size bullets/patches since we seem to be the only two still shooting Groove dia bullets as our SOP.
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Re: Patching to groove
True, I still use them as for me, it still is the most accurate bullet I use. I do shoot .451 patched up to .457-8, depending on the paper. There's only 1 single rifle that doesn't like PP bullets, and that's my 32-20...
My rifles I use groove-dia. PP in:
- 45-70 (throated) Martini match rifle
- Both no.2 Musket match rifles (or 500/450 no.2 - I actually use both groove and bore dia. PP in these)
- My original military martini's - both no.2 Musket and 577/450, I even shoot them dirty with blowtubing
Match rifle alloy is 16:1, military rifle alloy, military 30:1. The no.2 match rifles also have the 'dreaded' 45 degree transition (not an issue at all). The military rifles have the typical long taper from case mouth to groove diameter.
Shooting groove-dia. PP has some advantages, some disadvantages:
+ You can reduce powder capacity in larger cases, as more of the bullet sits in the case neck
+ No need to size cases for a standard GG chamber
+ you can shoot bullets patched to less than groove diameter (my 45-70 is .462 groove, I can perfectly shoot - accurately - a .457 bullet)
+ no issues with a freebore chamber
+ Seems to shoot cleaner than the bore-dia. bullet (personal impression for me)
+ Less critical as to overpowder wad (in a standard chamber) than bore dia. PP
- Powder capacity is reduced (potentially an issue in the smaller cases)
- Bullet alignment might be not so perfect? (then again identical to shooting GG bullets)
- Patching is more demanding - the front of the patch must be always in the same bullet location for loading consistency (I do seat my bullets out into the rifling for bullet alignment - as you would do with a GG bullet, except for military rifle.)
And not sure if something relating to groove-dia. PP, but I refer to my other thread with pics of a bullet fired from 1 of military martini's - there's no finning at the base... http://shilohrifle.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=29012
But the basics are easy - you have a bullet that - ideally - casts at around land diameter or above (so .450 or more), and patches up to groove diameter (or whatever fits relatively snugly in a fired case). in my 45-70, the patched bullet even is a pretty 'casual' fit in the case, flopping a bit around...
For the 577/450 military Martini's I even patch a .460 bullet up to .468, as that will fit the (sized) case neck and rifle throat easily, and produces best accuracy in all of the rifles chambered for the round, with the same (military) chamber/throat configuration.
Military rifle matches here are shot dirty, blowtubing only, so I load a bullet patched up to .458 (that's in the no.2 Musket, which has a .457 groove dia.) with a serious grease cookie, and yes, it will maintain its accuracy with just blowtubing. And even shoot cleaner than the normal GG bullets, where I experienced POI shift due to fouling (at least that's my explanation).
So yes, it certainly is a viable alternative, at least equal to the bore dia. PP bullet. And no, the paper won't strip when firing. And might just be the solution when you want to shoot a lighter load in that .45-90, -100 or whatever powder hungry cartridge, where the bore-dia. bullet would require you to use 95+ grains of powder... Depending on you bullet configuration, you can reduce that considerably - which will also reduce recoil, of course... (yes I'm a wimp, and I just might have a scottish tendency, but with powder at 95 euros/kg....)
My rifles I use groove-dia. PP in:
- 45-70 (throated) Martini match rifle
- Both no.2 Musket match rifles (or 500/450 no.2 - I actually use both groove and bore dia. PP in these)
- My original military martini's - both no.2 Musket and 577/450, I even shoot them dirty with blowtubing
Match rifle alloy is 16:1, military rifle alloy, military 30:1. The no.2 match rifles also have the 'dreaded' 45 degree transition (not an issue at all). The military rifles have the typical long taper from case mouth to groove diameter.
Shooting groove-dia. PP has some advantages, some disadvantages:
+ You can reduce powder capacity in larger cases, as more of the bullet sits in the case neck
+ No need to size cases for a standard GG chamber
+ you can shoot bullets patched to less than groove diameter (my 45-70 is .462 groove, I can perfectly shoot - accurately - a .457 bullet)
+ no issues with a freebore chamber
+ Seems to shoot cleaner than the bore-dia. bullet (personal impression for me)
+ Less critical as to overpowder wad (in a standard chamber) than bore dia. PP
- Powder capacity is reduced (potentially an issue in the smaller cases)
- Bullet alignment might be not so perfect? (then again identical to shooting GG bullets)
- Patching is more demanding - the front of the patch must be always in the same bullet location for loading consistency (I do seat my bullets out into the rifling for bullet alignment - as you would do with a GG bullet, except for military rifle.)
And not sure if something relating to groove-dia. PP, but I refer to my other thread with pics of a bullet fired from 1 of military martini's - there's no finning at the base... http://shilohrifle.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=29012
But the basics are easy - you have a bullet that - ideally - casts at around land diameter or above (so .450 or more), and patches up to groove diameter (or whatever fits relatively snugly in a fired case). in my 45-70, the patched bullet even is a pretty 'casual' fit in the case, flopping a bit around...
For the 577/450 military Martini's I even patch a .460 bullet up to .468, as that will fit the (sized) case neck and rifle throat easily, and produces best accuracy in all of the rifles chambered for the round, with the same (military) chamber/throat configuration.
Military rifle matches here are shot dirty, blowtubing only, so I load a bullet patched up to .458 (that's in the no.2 Musket, which has a .457 groove dia.) with a serious grease cookie, and yes, it will maintain its accuracy with just blowtubing. And even shoot cleaner than the normal GG bullets, where I experienced POI shift due to fouling (at least that's my explanation).
So yes, it certainly is a viable alternative, at least equal to the bore dia. PP bullet. And no, the paper won't strip when firing. And might just be the solution when you want to shoot a lighter load in that .45-90, -100 or whatever powder hungry cartridge, where the bore-dia. bullet would require you to use 95+ grains of powder... Depending on you bullet configuration, you can reduce that considerably - which will also reduce recoil, of course... (yes I'm a wimp, and I just might have a scottish tendency, but with powder at 95 euros/kg....)
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Re: Patching to groove
Well done Brian and informative. The only short coming for me is the reduced powder charge in my 45-90. Also My Ballard is such that a camming tool/device becomes a unwieldy contraption while reloading under time constraints. I would like to still try it in my 45-110 with the 7 deg lead, and there a little less powder is a non issue. Looks like another mold coming my way!
kw
kw
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Re: Patching to groove
No need for a camming tool in my case, and a Martini only has limited camming action. FWIW, a Ballard doesn't need a camming tool either - just closing the breechblock will cam a cartridge home, and then some!
Some of us do like to shoot PP in a 45-90 capacity case without using close to 100grs of powder![Smile :)](./images/smilies/icon_smile.gif)
Some of us do like to shoot PP in a 45-90 capacity case without using close to 100grs of powder
![Smile :)](./images/smilies/icon_smile.gif)
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Re: Patching to groove
Thanks for the reply Gert. (You weren't the one that said you "had" to shoot loose). I can definitely see it's advantages. Especially shooting dirty. Wiping properly is extremely critical with the tight patched bullets.martinibelgian wrote: ↑Tue Feb 07, 2023 1:43 am True, I still use them as for me, it still is the most accurate bullet I use. I do shoot .451 patched up to .457-8, depending on the paper. There's only 1 single rifle that doesn't like PP bullets, and that's my 32-20...
I'll address my experiences with wiping when I have more time to post.
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Re: Patching to groove
I don't have a camming tool for my Wesson #1 so I am loading them without camming, but it has a freebore.martinibelgian wrote: ↑Tue Feb 07, 2023 6:13 am No need for a camming tool in my case, and a Martini only has limited camming action.
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Re: Patching to groove
Well Brian, at one time I had a '64 Rambler Rogue on the farm, and the doors made a good target!
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Re: Patching to groove
Hey you two, does this count? One time back in 1995 I had the chance to put two 105 MM rounds through the door of a Deuce and a Half at 3 KMs. How's that for fun?
Paul
Paul
"My heroes have always been cowboys and they still are it seems."
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Re: Patching to groove
OK Paul, I'll see your two 105's and raise you with a couple of hundred 155's. LOL!!!!!
Woody
Woody
Richard A. Wood
If you are surrounded. You are in a target rich environment.
If you are surrounded. You are in a target rich environment.
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Re: Patching to groove
Woody, This is our son Chris with one of our infamous Leopard MKII Tanks. I was invited to a Gun Camp back then. It was the middle of December and the temperature was -37F. Short version, Chris was given the signal and all the Brass were looking the other way, gunner came out, Paul dropped in and by following the commands from Chris got off two rounds at said truck door, both hits at 3 KM. What a thrill.
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"My heroes have always been cowboys and they still are it seems."
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Re: Patching to groove
I remember Paul. You told me about this and your son a number of years ago at Raton. I couldn't resist the dig though. Hope to see you and Spot someplace this year. Enjoyed sharing a meal last year at the Q.
Woody
Woody
Richard A. Wood
If you are surrounded. You are in a target rich environment.
If you are surrounded. You are in a target rich environment.
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Re: Patching to groove
I don't know!!! We might have to consult the judge on this one, Not being paperpatch and all . Have to draw the line somewhere .
definitely be a hoot !!
![Shocked :shock:](./images/smilies/icon_eek.gif)
![Shocked :shock:](./images/smilies/icon_eek.gif)
![Shocked :shock:](./images/smilies/icon_eek.gif)
What say you DD ?? Count as a landfill shoot ????
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Re: Patching to groove
Now, that does look a lot like a Leopard 1, not a 2 to me..DeadEye wrote: ↑Tue Feb 07, 2023 4:32 pm Woody, This is our son Chris with one of our infamous Leopard MKII Tanks. I was invited to a Gun Camp back then. It was the middle of December and the temperature was -37F. Short version, Chris was given the signal and all the Brass were looking the other way, gunner came out, Paul dropped in and by following the commands from Chris got off two rounds at said truck door, both hits at 3 KM. What a thrill.
Chris with Tank.jpg
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Re: Patching to groove
You could be right, like I said it was a long time ago. I think that is what he said. He also said that this batch were purchased in the late '70s. Service life was set at 5000 KM and all of ours had about 25,000 KM on them. Then as now keeping them running was a problem.
Here he is somewhere in Kosovo serving with the UN forces in 1999. We had one squadron and a spare there.
Here he is somewhere in Kosovo serving with the UN forces in 1999. We had one squadron and a spare there.
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"My heroes have always been cowboys and they still are it seems."