Hey Aviator

Discussions of powders, bullets and loading information.

Moderators: Kirk, Lucinda

Post Reply
semtav
Posts: 2876
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 3:21 pm
Location: Montana

Hey Aviator

Post by semtav »

I'm guessing the following quote from DD was about you.
Question. Do you check the hardness of your 12-1? If so how and What BHN are you coming up with.

Thanks

desert deuce wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 7:16 am In the upcoming issue #114 of Black Powder Cartridge News, which is at the printers now, I think you will find the overall winner at Phoenix last month was using 12-1 in a 45-70 with grease groove BACO Money Bullets.
Aviator
Posts: 427
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2018 8:06 pm

Re: Hey Aviator

Post by Aviator »

Yeah, that might be me..... 8)

I have a tester that I got from LBT, but I really don't trust it to give anything but relative numbers.
My tester reports about 13 for 16:1, and 14 for 12:1, but I am not convinced that these numbers are actual BHN. Recovered bullets also show less shortening of length and less expansion of the nose when going from 16:1 to 12:1. When I switched to 12 for my Shiloh 45-70, I saw some evidence that targets showed some improvement, but I cannot say that I proved it.

I suspect that there is a point of diminishing return on expecting alloy to keep getting harder with addition of tin. I have not gone beyond 12:1.

Unfortunately, tin has gotten quite a bit more expensive in the last couple of years :roll: .
semtav
Posts: 2876
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 3:21 pm
Location: Montana

Re: Hey Aviator

Post by semtav »

OK thanks.
I was hoping you had a cabin tree tester so we could compare apples to apples.
my current 12.5-1 batch reads .074 on the tester which they say is just slightly softer than 10-1.
I'd really like to get a mean for future reference since I use a lot of random bought tin.

I recovered one bullet from my "fireforming test" yesterday. Unfortunately I don't know what alloy it was cause I just gathered up all the stray KAL elliptial bullets I could find and shot them up to get rid of them.
It has to be softer than 12.5-1 I hope cause the nose sure shortened and the rifling went .100 past the patch.
I might cut the nose off and test it.


elliptical bullet.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
ian45662
Posts: 717
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 3:42 pm

Re: Hey Aviator

Post by ian45662 »

Aviator wrote: Sun Feb 19, 2023 4:19 pm Yeah, that might be me..... 8)

I have a tester that I got from LBT, but I really don't trust it to give anything but relative numbers.
My tester reports about 13 for 16:1, and 14 for 12:1, but I am not convinced that these numbers are actual BHN. Recovered bullets also show less shortening of length and less expansion of the nose when going from 16:1 to 12:1. When I switched to 12 for my Shiloh 45-70, I saw some evidence that targets showed some improvement, but I cannot say that I proved it.

I suspect that there is a point of diminishing return on expecting alloy to keep getting harder with addition of tin. I have not gone beyond 12:1.

Unfortunately, tin has gotten quite a bit more expensive in the last couple of years :roll: .
What are you sizing your bullets at and what is your groove diameter?
Aviator
Posts: 427
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2018 8:06 pm

Re: Hey Aviator

Post by Aviator »

Groove is .458, and I size bullets to .459 for this rifle (Shiloh). Bullets are slip fit in a fired case. I engrave bullets, but don't need to cam them in.
ian45662
Posts: 717
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 3:42 pm

Re: Hey Aviator

Post by ian45662 »

Thanks for the info!!
User avatar
desert deuce
Posts: 3844
Joined: Mon Apr 14, 2008 10:51 pm
Location: Rio Rico, Arizona

Re: Hey Aviator

Post by desert deuce »

My experience with sizing dies for cast bullets.
IE: I have four SAECO .458 stamped Sizing dies. One sizes .458, one sizes .4575, One sizes .4571 and the fourth .4569.
I have another SAECO .459 Stamped die that sizes .4583

Moral of the story? Just because your sizing die is stamped .458 does not necessarily mean the diameter of the sized bullet will be .458.
Sometimes you get the chicken, and sometimes you get the feathers!
Aviator
Posts: 427
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2018 8:06 pm

Re: Hey Aviator

Post by Aviator »

How true!
But, since my push-thru sizing die is home-made, bullets pushed thru it are .459 8)
I made it because purchased die were so variable..... :shock:
kwilliams
Posts: 284
Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2019 8:42 am
Location: Wyoming

Re: Hey Aviator

Post by kwilliams »

desert deuce wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 1:32 pm My experience with sizing dies for cast bullets.
IE: I have four SAECO .458 stamped Sizing dies. One sizes .458, one sizes .4575, One sizes .4571 and the fourth .4569.
I have another SAECO .459 Stamped die that sizes .4583

What type of measuring devices do you have that can qualify a .0001, .0003, or .0009"measurement? Worrying about tenths with non certified instruments in a non temp. controlled room seems to be non realistic. The die ID would have to be air gauged to be certain. Most gauge pins sets are either plus or minus and we sent them out to be re certified.
Aviator
Posts: 427
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2018 8:06 pm

Re: Hey Aviator

Post by Aviator »

All true, measuring tenths accurately requires some care.

But, since my rifle seems to care whether the bullet diameter is controlled better than than +/- .001, I care too, whether or not the manufacturer of the sizer die does.
kwilliams
Posts: 284
Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2019 8:42 am
Location: Wyoming

Re: Hey Aviator

Post by kwilliams »

A diameter of plus/minus .001" is a valid concern, .0001, .0003" hardly.
kw
User avatar
desert deuce
Posts: 3844
Joined: Mon Apr 14, 2008 10:51 pm
Location: Rio Rico, Arizona

Re: Hey Aviator

Post by desert deuce »

Yes there is variation between the 4 sizing dies that are stamped .458. All measured with the same instruments at the same time.
What I did was cast several bullets from 1-20 alloy from a mould that drops bullets at ,461 with a Mitotoyo dial calper and checked with a micrometer.
I then pushed each through the .459 die, came out .4583. Yes I lubed the bullet before pushing it through.
Then I sized one of those bullets in each of the four dies to get what they came out as, understanding there may be some spring back.
So the idea here is I am using the same instruments with the same dies in the same rifles and by shooting the different sized bullets in different barrels I find which size bullet each barrel likes and go from there.
Universally speaking, the majority prefer bullets sized .4575 (making them visually and measurably more round) from a mould that drops bullets 4581 nominally, (not so round).

What matters to me is the exercise brought me closer to a balanced load for shooting long range. And that is what I had to work with.

For my purposes, when a load holds a minute or less elevation at long range, what it took to get there may not be "precise" but it worked.
Sometimes you get the chicken, and sometimes you get the feathers!
Post Reply