Trends in BPCR Long Range Shooting

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Kenny Wasserburger
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Re: Trends in BPCR Long Range Shooting

Post by Kenny Wasserburger »

I did neglect to mention bullet alloy. 14.5-1 with a tiny amount of antimony, from the 95/5 tin-antimony solder I use to drop from 16-1 alloy to 14.5-1.

I am pretty Leary of using very much antimony, in my alloys although Metford mentioned 2% in his alloy mixes. Paper patched bullets should mitigate any leading issues if patched to the proper height.

A quick perusal of Edwin Perry’s 1880 volume, shows that the Creedmoor shooters of the 1879 matches were using 11-1 to the softest being 14-1 alloy. Close to bore size bullets with thin paper undoubtedly, the reasoning behind using those harder alloys.

Perry stressed a clean bore and dry bore between shots or a very light oiled bore. I prefer clean and dry myself.

My bullets are .452 at the base section, the major diameter as I call it, some .350 in length. The minor diameter after the 3° transition, is .445. Seth Cole 55W is used to wet wrap the bullet, with distilled water with some rubbing Alcohol added to speed the drying on a coffee warmer plate. A procedure Dan T. And myself worked up. The Hyde base method also is employed, another technique gleaned from research and Dan and myself collaborating on. Early issues of the Rifle and Edwin Perry’s 1880 edition are priceless sources of information for those willing to do the research and just read.

My patched bullet is then pushed through a Lee .457 sizing die, by hand.

A Paul Jones 45 caliber vld chamfer tool is used on the case mouths. Bullet is a simple slip fit in the case.

Wiping regime is two felts on a BACO wiper, a second assembly is then pushed through, followed by 1 or 2 dry patches plus a chamber swabbing to ensure no moisture in the chamber.

These felts are soaking wet, and a snug fit to the barrel. I use MPro-7 to wipe with as it controls the carbon fouling exceptionally well a proven fact.

This combination has proven to yield very good scores at long range, for two years in a row at Alliance and my own match. [attachment=2]20210104_151737_resized.jpeg[/attachment]
[attachment=2]20210104_151737_resized.jpeg[/attachment][attachment=2]20210104_151737_resized.jpeg[/attachment]

My goals are rather simple to better my scores every time I shoot, secondly and more importantly: is to advance the science of PP Bullets and their successful use in competitive shooting to share knowledge and techniques. To advance our combined knowledge in this endeavor is in my opinion a very worthwhile goal.
Kenny Wasserburger
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Kenny Wasserburger
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Re: Trends in BPCR Long Range Shooting

Post by Kenny Wasserburger »

Research and Reading occupy as nearly as much of my time as range time does.
[attachment=1]IMG_0584.jpeg[/attachment]
[attachment=1]IMG_0584.jpeg[/attachment]


Kenny Wasserburger
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Kenny Wasserburger
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Re: Trends in BPCR Long Range Shooting

Post by Kenny Wasserburger »

Time is running short.

Labor Day Weekend, Traditional Creedmoor and the Wasserburger Mile Match.
Plus 22 Creedmoor on the Friday before.

Wyoming’s only and the First original Mile Match. And the original Tradition Creedmoor Match.


Kenny Wasserburger
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Kenny Wasserburger
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Re: Trends in BPCR Long Range Shooting

Post by Kenny Wasserburger »

In 2008 we were wiping. There were plenty of naysayers then,

My my how things have changed. Remember this post?

Blowing Wiping Paper Patching: The Chronograph Wars
Post by Kenny Wasserburger » Sun Jun 08, 2008 7:08 pm

Blowing Wiping and Paper Patching: The Chronograph Wars

This past Saturday June 1st I finally got a break in the wet spring weather Wyoming has been benefiting from. I finally got the time and conditions to be able to Chronograph my loads used in the recent Wasserburger Mile and Creedmoor match fired in May. Air Temp on June 1st was in the upper 50’s cloudy overcast and humidity was in excess of 80% Very humid for Wyoming.

Off to the good old Gillette Gun club for some Chronograph testing of my latest Paper Patch loads that I used with good success at the recent Wasserburger Mile Match. At this match last month I ran 5/10 at the mile target on the second relay and had the most hits of all the shooters, alas this match is scored like my Creedmoor match, it’s a points match not a Gong Match. Maybe I should change the rules? My Long range Partner of many years (also shooting a 45-110) Jimbo Terry won the Mile shoot with his 5 bulls eye hits and a couple of outers. Awesome by anyone’s standards considering the extreme range we were shooting at with Iron Sights.

I also brought along some of my Grease Groove loads that also where shot with much success at that Creedmoor Match that same weekend. Also tested where some loads from last years Mile Testing session.

I again used my tried and true Oehler 35P Chronograph for this battery of tests.

Grease Groove load #1 is as follows:
Norma Case trimmed to 2.875 annealed after each firing
WLR Primer (old white box) (1) Mead Tracing paper Primer wad
Goex Express Fg lot 01-89
Charge was 110 grs weight, weighed on a I-101 My Weigh balance
Charge is compressed .385
Wads (3) total 1 .060 veg fiber to compress powder (1) .060 Poly wad (1) .091 Cork wad.
Bullet was my 526 grain Mono-Groove Nielson-Theodore Bullet 20-1 alloy, Mould by Steve Brooks and is a Nose Pour Mould.
With the above wad set up, the bullet is out and hard into the lands with about .0015 of neck tension also.

Load #2 is the exact same as #1 but has no cork wad and the bullet is .091 back from the lands. This is the load we used last year in September to make the first Hit at the Mile Target we erected at My Family’s ranch In NE Wyoming.

Load #3 is the exact same as #1 except for the BACO .446 Money Bullet in place of the Mono-Groove bullet. Bullet is patched with .0016 8# Seth Cole Tracing paper. Bullet weight for this bullet in 20-1 alloy is 519.5 grains.

In recent past posts on the Shiloh forum folks mentioned if they had to wipe between shots they most likely would not be out shooting if it was that hot. Also such a regime is too much work and takes too much time. I understand their thinking but I disagree. Traditional Long range matches were shot with wiping between shots in this country with the inception of the very first Creedmoor matches. If you’re an accuracy nut and want the best from your loads then, in my opinion wiping is the way to go. This opinion I draw from this simple chronograph test done on June 1st of this year.

Load #2 was shot first: Using a blow tube, and I on purpose altered the blowing from 6-8 breaths as in the heat of competition we often lose count of our blowing, such as during discourse with our spotters????

The results are of interest;

After 2 fouling shots I began to record the Muzzle velocities.
1375 fps (8 blows)
1353 fps (6 blows)
1373 fps (8 blows)
1364 fps (8 blows)
1361 fps (8 blows)
1357 fps (6 blows)
1348 fps (6 blows)

This gave an ES of 27 fps and a SD of 7 fps.

Next was load #1 was tested, just a blow tube used no wiping.
2 fouling shots again
1363 fps (6 blows)
1374 fps (8blows)
1381 fps (8 blows)
1366 fps (6 blows)
1378 fps (8 blows)
1394 fps (8 blows)
1381 fps (8 blows)
1371 fps (6 blows)
1371 fps (6 blows)
1378 fps (8blows)
1385 fps (6 blows)

This gave an ES of 31 fps and a SD of 8 fps

Looking at the above two tests shows how one can induce a good bit of ES in just the difference of 2 breaths on the blow tube. I know I was quite amazed, it would appear that one can under hydrate the fouling even in very humid conditions.

Now load #1 shot again but with Wiping between shots with a Tiption Rod and brush with a 2.5 inch damp Pro-Shot Products patch and a dry 2.5 inch Pro-shot patch following the damp patch. This is the method Dan Theodore taught me about.

No fouling shots fired started with a clean dry barrel.
1404 fps
1403 fps
1412 fps
1400 fps
1407 fps

This method gave an ES of 12 fps avg of 1405 fps and a SD of 4 fps; this is most thought provoking in my opinion. This was the load and fouling control method I used in the Creedmoor match that weekend in may, with very good results. Notice also the increase in Muzzle velocity this would in my opinion help the 45-70 shooter a great deal in Creedmoor matches. Also please notice the increase in MV and that is why I think wiping would help the Velocity challenged 45-70 shooters.

Lastly I tested my Paper Patch loads I used in the Mile match.

Wiping again between each shot started with a clean barrel

No fouling shots fired.

1353 fps
1350 fps
1359 fps
1360 fps
1348 fps

This gave an ES of 12 fps avg of 1354 fps and SD of 5 fps.

This is an impressive load also and while it averages only 1354 fps it did very well at a Range of 1 mile. Better then my Grease Groove load averaging 1405 fps. I think (my opinion) that the ballistic advantage lies with the Paper Patch bullet based on, while 50 fps slower, it required 40 MOA Less elevation and on the order of 66% of the windage the Grease Groove bullet did.

The Lunger

Founder-Member H’RASS

PS the above is an excerpt from an article I am working on.
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kwilliams
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Re: Trends in BPCR Long Range Shooting

Post by kwilliams »

That is some very interesting performance data between the PP and GG, between the windage and vertical.
kw
patchbox
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Re: Trends in BPCR Long Range Shooting

Post by patchbox »

The lowered ES & SD with wiping are impressive and I never would have thought that 2 breaths difference would show those variations in velocity- very interesting data.
Kenny Wasserburger
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Re: Trends in BPCR Long Range Shooting

Post by Kenny Wasserburger »

Dan T had some interesting comments on this thread.

Unfortunately he had them purged after he got pissed, along with all his other posts. Much of his insightful knowledge lost. At his request, I will add.

Hence I just posted the initial post of mine, the thread got diluted by some posters and never really a good discussion of the data of the original post.

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Re: Trends in BPCR Long Range Shooting

Post by JonnyV »

That's very interesting data. What lube were you using back then? This test is worth repeating and trying from a couple different angles. I would be interested to see WL vs Emmert's Improved (well known and used of the beeswax lubes) vs PP...you could also look at the differences in wiping fluid too. I had seen that post a while back but it had slipped from the mind....EXCELLENT POST
Kenny Wasserburger
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Re: Trends in BPCR Long Range Shooting

Post by Kenny Wasserburger »

Back then I was using Nappa cutting oil 1-7 with distilled water. White Lighting Lube.

Kenny Wasserburger
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Kenny Wasserburger
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Re: Trends in BPCR Long Range Shooting

Post by Kenny Wasserburger »

Folks:

As they say, there has been a disturbance in the Force.

With the announcement of the Byers Colorado Rifle Club kicking the BPTRA to the curb, and subsequent dissolution of the BPTRA. Many long Range shooters in the Rocky Mountain West region are deprived of the use of an excellent shooting facility. The pits are the absolute best in the country in my opinion. The matches were well run with several of us volunteers helping Robert.

It is a damn shame, several of us had already planned after this years match to buy at our own expense new uprights for the carriers. They are after all designer as a consumable wear item. I have already helped building them at Phoenix’s Desert International, along with my best friend spotter and shooting Partner Jimbo Terry, we assembled quite a few. Along with Rick Rutter and Bob Anderson. Both guys are also members of the Colorado Rifle club.

Kenny Wasserburger

I would hate to be the individual or individuals responsible for shutting down the BPTRA’s Access to that facility at Byers. That’s something that won’t or will not readily wash off. Shame on those responsible. Well done sir or sirs, you have delivered a gut punch to the oldest National match in America.

Creedmoor is the oldest standing shooting venue in America our NRA’s whole reason to come to be is based on the Creedmoor Matches.

I would encourage you all to try to make Missoula’s fall long range match, or my Traditional Creedmoor 1874 style match celebration of the 150th anniversary Match. Labor Day weekend.

Especially try to make the upcoming Desert international match in Phoenix AZ, this match is absolutely the best event bang for your buck going for Creedmoor matches please consider going.
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Don McDowell
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Re: Trends in BPCR Long Range Shooting

Post by Don McDowell »

Aside from the fuss over the 2x4’s
This newsletter seems to explain another part of the loss of the Byers matches
https://crci.org/Portals/8/content/file ... C_News.pdf
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Kenny Wasserburger
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Re: Trends in BPCR Long Range Shooting

Post by Kenny Wasserburger »

Still a shame all that work done on those pits.

The Electronic targets a way cool and work fast, I shot them in the vintage sniper matches at Phoenix in 2022, it does go very quick, still problems though. Modern guns cut cables multiple times and we had delays. However the instant feed back via a tablet at each firing point was incredible.

Thanks for passing on that info Don, another piece of the story.

Kenny
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Don McDowell
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Re: Trends in BPCR Long Range Shooting

Post by Don McDowell »

Well at least the. question Eddie and I were going back and forth on this batch of 10 ft 2x4’s got solved
Don’t have to decide whether to smooth the corners or put barbs on
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Re: Trends in BPCR Long Range Shooting

Post by steveu834 »

So, they are not going to shoot past 600 to try to keep replacement costs down on the electronic targets???
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Re: Trends in BPCR Long Range Shooting

Post by Don McDowell »

Don’t know and don’t really care
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