The Money/Metford nose profile vrs the Elliptical nose.

[JonnyV]

The differences in the short to medium ranges will be slight and harder to measure. As the ranges open out, they'll become more pronounced. In a perfect world, you could run these tests in a controlled environment with the rifle mounted in a machine rest. You'd get your answer then in no uncertain terms. Problem is, all of us put together don't have the money to pull that off...

The idea behind using hundreds of groups is that trends in bullet performance could be identified. The big numbers of individual tests alone would tend to even things out between shooters of different ability levels. We're talking about a LOT of groups here, and they would all have to be divided up by yardage and bullet type (at least). You'd end up with a very good estimation of which one works better based on the law of averages, and it could be further tested manually, or as below. WARNING: IDEA FROM ANOTHER SHOOTING DISCIPLINE GOING TO BE FLOATED...

An individual shooter could do an analysis similar to this with just his own groups to work from. (SENSITIVE PEOPLE STOP READING RIGHT HERE!!) If you have good chronograph data and can calculate your BC with reasonable accuracy, you can build a load profile in a Kestrel 5700 and get a very accurate profile to work with. You would have to "true up" your data by actual testing and adjust the BC in the Kestrel accordingly, but it would provide a very solid answer for your load and your rifle. I ran this question by another shooter that most on here seem to respect and he replied that he had done some work in this area (testing method, not just comparing bullet types) and found the method works. Not sure if he used a Kestrel, but it doesn't matter, you can do the same thing with long hand math. The unit just makes it a lot easier. I will not out the other guy so that he won't be scourged for any supposed heathen activities.

The most important thing in doing all this is to arrive at the best solution possible. You can't be a fan-boy of any particular bullet type, style, weight, alloy, or what have you and conduct an honest set of tests. The idea of a big bullet test session is very appealing. Lots of guys would have much they could contribute and many groups could be fired in similar conditions looking at alloys, profiles, velocities, wad combinations, etc. Someone better than me will have to work the computer to tabulate all this. Would also be a fair amount of thought needed to come up with a way to quantify the results and put it in a format all the guys could read and understand.

[JonnyV]

Couple other thoughts:

You'd need to keep sight settings for each target and range

You'd have to separate out the different alloys

Chronograph data would really help

Maybe Gullo could give us a group discount if we order more than a pallet of powder for this?

The idea of a group test is very appealing. You could get a lot of data in a hurry under similar conditions. Lots of guys would have a lot to contribute!

I gotta go, have a lot of loading to do for my own crazy tests....

[semtav]

Left to right.





In the spirt of the search of our best loads for long range. I would love to host, not a match per se but a bullet testing seminar at the ranch. Both 600 yard testing and 800-1000 yard testing. This is along the lines of what Don proposed but in a more relaxed setting. No pressure just shoot, what ya brung. The conclusions of such would be of real benefit to the shooters in attendance of course. But also to the rest of the collective.

JohnnyV bring your stuff too. You’re always welcome, Lester and Tony also I would hope to get to attend. And Semtav, Craneman you’re also welcome. Cody Smith too. Don you’re so close it be criminal not to come.



Kenny Wasserburger

Would make for a fun match. First thing I have to do is get some practice in.
If nothing else, this thread has gotten me of my D.A. Just cast up a bunch of money bullets to test against my Elliptical bullets in my 45-110.
Results may be irrelevant to anyone but me but would be a good start.

[Aviator]

In the spirt of the search of our best loads for long range. I would love to host, not a match per se but a bullet testing seminar at the ranch. Both 600 yard testing and 800-1000 yard testing. This is along the lines of what Don proposed but in a more relaxed setting. No pressure just shoot, what ya brung. The conclusions of such would be of real benefit to the shooters in attendance of course. But also to the rest of the collective.

Multiple spotters would work together with a single shooter at a time to ensure he gets the most best accurate information to keep him on target to give the load the best chance for a real performance evaluation. What Don proposed is great but it would I believe evolve into just a spotter’s match not the best evaluation of bullet performance.

We could work 2 shooters at a time one at 800 and 1 at 1000. Possibly a 3rd at 600. All on the line with a spotter by committee. Multiple Glass looking at the target at the same time not to win a match but to get the maximum effort to stay on target, for each shooter.

Kenny Wasserburger

Kenny, I think that could be a very illuminating session!
Especially if we could happen to get one challenging gusty day AND a nice steady breeze day!

[Kenny Wasserburger]

KW your bullet test thing sounds fun, but it it happens anytime between now and around the 18th of November I’ll have to plead Nola contendray
Not sure how the best bullet profile will ever be determined. Matches are good evidence , but unless everybody opts out of a spotter and unlimited sighters, the question was it the spotter or is it in fact the bullet, primer powder…. The list goes on question
Heck look at the high power guys and the plethora of bullets they have to choose from and with the exception of the bullet detour of the month gets replaced by the next hottest thing.

Don this is something that definitely has to take place next spring at the very earliest.
Some thought and planning would be involved. And I do have a full plate next year with the 150th Creedmoor Match.

Kenny W?

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Left to right.





In the spirt of the search of our best loads for long range. I would love to host, not a match per se but a bullet testing seminar at the ranch. Both 600 yard testing and 800-1000 yard testing. This is along the lines of what Don proposed but in a more relaxed setting. No pressure just shoot, what ya brung. The conclusions of such would be of real benefit to the shooters in attendance of course. But also to the rest of the collective.

JohnnyV bring your stuff too. You’re always welcome, Lester and Tony also I would hope to get to attend. And Semtav, Craneman you’re also welcome. Cody Smith too. Don you’re so close it be criminal not to come.



Kenny Wasserburger

Would make for a fun match. First thing I have to do is get some practice in.
If nothing else, this thread has gotten me of my D.A. Just cast up a bunch of money bullets to test against my Elliptical bullets in my 45-110.
Results may be irrelevant to anyone but me but would be a good start.

Brian,

Please share your findings, KW

[Don McDowell]

Sometime next year would be good,but this ain’t goin away any time soon so if it doesn’t well then there’s always next year.
Just hopefully not like the conditions of the 06 match when ambient was 115 and we all started delving into the world of fouling control

[craneman]

I really don't know if a flatter shooting bullet design offers a significant advantage at the speeds our bullets travel but will offer up that Steve (Aviator) mentioned his three bullet profiles required about 132 minutes from 200-1000 yards. My load & bullet traveling at the same velocities requires 125 minutes to go from 200 yards here at the house to the 1000 yard line at Lodi.

Todd

Todd, I wonder if you would clarify one point for me, to make sure we're on the same page.

I know that some folks assume that .01 inch adjustment of the rear sight equates to one minute of angle. But of course it really depends on the actual distance from the rear aperture to the front aperture.
When you say 125 minutes from 200 yards to 1000 yards, do you mean 125 minutes of angle, or 1.25 inch adjustment of rear sight?

I don't doubt that your paper patch bullets have higher BC, just want to make sure we're talking the same language.

Steve

Steve,
I appreciate you posing the question because terminology differences are important and I hadn't thought it through before my post and I was wrong to use points and MOA interchangeably. I don't know your barrel lengths but if they are 32" opposed to my 30" and I have done my math correctly then the minute of angle differences from 200 to 1000 yards are indeed the same for your loads and mine and require about 132".

Todd