Catching up!

[captpetryusn]

I am back on-line after after a year of hell. My son sustained a double stroke occurring on both sides of his brain in the beginning of 2023. The good part is he is alive and somewhat mobile, but still has vertigo which they do NOT believe will subside. I apologize to RB1shooter as I never got back to him regarding our conversation on Black powder basics. Quigley was not to happen for me this past year. HOWEVER, I am trying to get there this year and have reserved a room at the Rails Inn hotel in Forsyth. I am going to shoot smokeless and have over the past 2 months have come up with IMR-4198 for my load. I am now only successfully dinging out to 300 yds with a 500 gr bullet but.... headed for 400 yds next week. My goal is to arrive at Quigley on Wednesday prior to match on the 15th REGARDLESS of what I am shooting out to. Really did not take the opportunity nor time to jump into black powder as of yet.

On the bright side I am being honored by the Rumshock Veterans Foundation in Highland Mills N.Y. for my career in the military (USN) in April of this year, honoring my career having achieved the rate of Master Chief Machinist Mate (E-9) and rank as an LDO Captain (0-6) with 2 commands in the Navy for over 36 years of mostly submarine service (1970-2006). I look forward to that with a smile. It was a major portion of my adult life.
Hope to meet you at Quigley!

May the winds be always at your back,
and the sun warm upon your face!
VR/Pete

[bobw]

Thank you for your service. Next save the imr4198 for your 222 Remington and jacketed bullets. There isn't enough 4198 in a 45-70 to provide good case fill to prevent hangfires unless you buffer it or a wad of dacron. All shooters who use smokeless at the Q are ammunition inspected before being allowed to participate. After having 2 guns blown up out there with partial fill smokeless loads they just say NO to them.people are there to shoot not to worry about someone using a potential pipe bomb next to them. Work with FFg 62-67 grains a hard card .030" wad and a 520 gr Lyman 457125 gov't bullet. Work with those to get the accuracy you want. The smokeless rules are to keep everyone safe not to make you happy. You don't need to believe me either ask any Q veteran about the smokeless rules or call the club. Nothing personal but your so new you don't even know what you don't know. Bobw

[Aviator]

While the Quigley Match does impose some restrictions on smokeless powder, they are not as restrictive as the previous post suggests.

If you use a double-base powder, you are not allowed to use an over-powder wad of any type.

IMR 4198 is NOT a double-base powder. I still would encourage you to NEVER use any type of wad over ANY smokeless powder, whether single or double based.

You didn't mention what cartridge your rifle is chambered for. If 45-2.1 (45-70), there is ample published load data for IMR 4198. If it is chambered for a longer case than 2.1, I would strongly suggest that smokeless powder is not such a good choice.

I think you would find that you will have better luck with your rifle at long range if you make the move to black powder.

[Aviator]

Here is the address of the Quigley Match document:

https://www.quigleymatch.com/safety.html

[SFogler]

I think you would find that you will have better luck with your rifle at long range if you make the move to black powder.

x2

[JonnyV]

My first year at the Q, I shot a 45-70 with Accurate 5744 powder (double base stick type). As mentioned above, wads and fillers are expressly forbidden with smokeless powder. My load was “legal” and I got 23 or 24 hits. You can get by for a year or two with smokeless powder, but you really have to be on your game at the loading bench as a double charge is easy to come by, even in the smaller 2.1” case. If your rifle is chambered in 45-90 or anything on up, I would follow Aviatior’s advice and load black powder only.

At the end of my first Q, I drive home thinking about all the guys I had watched shoot for the whole week (I get there the Sunday prior). I had gone there a dedicated smokeless shooter, and 7 days later I understood that I would never be competitive with smokeless. I started making the switch to BP immediately upon arriving back home.

My second Q I shot 29, and this last year I shot 35 (first place scope division). I’m still not a top of the leaderboard guy, but I am moving up in a good fashion. I would not be having this level of success if I had stuck with smokeless. It just doesn’t burn well or deliver the consistency you need in these big cases.

The guys above are steering you right…My 2 cents.

[captpetryusn]

The previous post was to let you know I was back on line, I had not done ANYTHING to progress my shooting in 2023, and also stated that I had not the time to figure out and obtain black powder loads now, BUT was going to get going in the sport after the shit hit the fan.
I have:
Shiloh 45-70 2.1 Long Range Express, with a heavy half 28 inch barrel, 23 inch MVA scope, also Soule vernier tang sight, loading by the manuals 34 grains of IMR-4198 for a FPS of approx. 1400 and 26,000cup which is 1 grain off of where Ruger 1 loads are for a cast RN 500 gr. bullet with minimal air gap spacing. The minimum load is 28 gr. of IMR- 4198 for 1244 fps. for a 500 gr. bullet,

My Marlin 1895 JM Guide gun 18 inch barrel nor my Marlin 26 inch barrel never had a problem with these loads when reloading.

However, I will this year commence using Goex to start with and what I read 2f is a good starting point for the 2.1 plus buying the appropriate drop tube and tools.

I will contact the appropriate people before I arrive at Quigley to discuss my loads for this year.
I am also on the waiting list (for over a year) for another Shiloh and have contacted them and I have another year wait plus a couple of months. Will be deciding that final build after I go to Quigley this year.

I hope this clears up my "Hello! I am back."

VR/Pete

[JonnyV]

The previous post was to let you know I was back on line, I had not done ANYTHING to progress my shooting in 2023, and also stated that I had not the time to figure out and obtain black powder loads now, BUT was going to get going in the sport after the shit hit the fan.
I have:
Shiloh 45-70 2.1 Long Range Express, with a heavy half 28 inch barrel, 23 inch MVA scope, also Soule vernier tang sight, loading by the manuals 34 grains of IMR-4198 for a FPS of approx. 1400 and 26,000cup which is 1 grain off of where Ruger 1 loads are for a cast RN 500 gr. bullet with minimal air gap spacing. The minimum load is 28 gr. of IMR- 4198 for 1244 fps. for a 500 gr. bullet,

My Marlin 1895 JM Guide gun 18 inch barrel nor my Marlin 26 inch barrel never had a problem with these loads when reloading.

However, I will this year commence using Goex to start with and what I read 2f is a good starting point for the 2.1 plus buying the appropriate drop tube and tools.

I will contact the appropriate people before I arrive at Quigley to discuss my loads for this year.
I am also on the waiting list (for over a year) for another Shiloh and have contacted them and I have another year wait plus a couple of months. Will be deciding that final build after I go to Quigley this year.

I hope this clears up my "Hello! I am back."

VR/Pete

Pete....it's gonna be OK. No one here has any hostile intent. It's just that we're a bunch of curmudgeons. Bob in particular is a curmudgeon par excellence...Having never met him before, you'll instantly recognize Bob when he starts in on you at the firing line (does it to a LOT of people). The guy is a rare gem!

You can have a good bit of fun at the Q with your smokeless load. My load 3 years ago was a 500 grain Accurate mold bullet running 1405 fps. I got a fair number of hits and learned a TON in one week.

No one is trying to force you into BP on short notice. What they are doing is passing along valuable intel on what it takes to be competitive at this sport. Black powder just burns much more consistently in these big cases, which yields lower extreme spreads, which results in more hits (if the dummy behind the trigger has his stuff together).

[captpetryusn]

""""There isn't enough 4198 in a 45-70 to provide good case fill to prevent hangfires unless you buffer it or a wad of dacron. All shooters who use smokeless at the Q are ammunition inspected before being allowed to participate"""""

If someone had worked ALOT with IMR-4198 loadings they would know that a double shot of 34 grains would overflow the cartridge case and that in addition, just like black powder, someone needs to take measurements of the bullet depth and depth of the powder so that you don't compress the load or leave too much airspace. AND I NEVER....have EVER USE WADS!, nor do I plan to with smokeless......Just for history purposes I load exclusively straight wall brass for 45 colt, 44 mag, 44 special, 357 mag, 38 special and 45-70. Been doing it for years. I only shoot lever action rifles, revolvers (single/double), and DB shotguns.

I have spent the last 2 years reading the Shiloh forum about all of you and the trials and tribulations of powders (smokeless/Black), wads, bullets, 45-70 vs 45-90vs 45-110 vs 40-65 vs 50-90, 28 vs 30vs32vs34 barrel lengths. Scopes galore....I read the Quigley requirements vs NRA match requirements, made a copy of the registration with all the safety requirements, studied the sizes and distances of the targets and I in ****MArch 2022 CALLED individuals @ Quigley LEE RANCH Associates and TALKED TO THEM ABOUT SMOKELESS LOADS , .....Timed the average interval at Quigley match utube between someone shooting and then how long it takes to get back to him. studied there shooting position, the different sized cross sticks, listened to recoil therapy and his experiences, sawgrass shooting 45-70/90/110 and different barrel lengths, with a 45 COLT 1873 out to 600 yds. Shiloh vs Brownings vs Pedersoli, vs Miruku...... silhouette shooting and preferred rifles. Plus I shot SASS for 7 years in Saratogs Springs, N.Y. Shot skeet and trap, reload my own 12, 20, 410 gauges.

Translation: I have entered this sport slowly, safely, with the intent of moving to black powder and with my eyes,ears and mind open to suggestion, education, & learning because I know nothing about it...... but taken and given with respect.

JohnnyV.... thank you for your input!

AND I STILL HAVE NOT MADE UP MY MIND ABOUT BARREL LENGTH..........AFTER QUIGLEY!

VR/Pete

[bobw]

The title of the thread is "catching Up" then you proceed with development of loads using smokeless powder. I consider that going backwards. Just about every load featuring smokeless listed in Lyman's 3rd edn Cast Bullet Handbook indicates a dacron wad used. Until approaching max levels where it has appropriate case fill. My own experience from way back when using a trapdoor and 457191 with 28.5 grs of 4198 is that if you don't use the dacron you will get hangfires. Translation my experience and opinion was freely given, you obviously don't need or want it that's fine I certainly won't offer you or Jonny anymore. You can both find out everything you need to know on your own. Probably that will help you more than anything. Have a good day..bobw

[LHines]

I will agree with others who posted regarding 4198 in the 45-70. I have been loading 45-70 for almost 50 years and found 4198 only suitable for TRex loads. Loaded down to trapdoor levels had ES of over 100fps. On the other hand loading with 2400 and 5744 I achieve under 30fps ES and single digit SD. I shot my first Q last year using my 1886 Browning levergun shooting smokeless with 5744. Shot a 30 which I thought was pretty good for my first time, especially with a levergun. I hit 7 and 8 respectively on targets 4 and 5. Need a lot more practice on the off hand though. I purchased an 1874 Shiloh #3 and hope to better my score this year. My goal is to finish in the top 100. Had a blast last year.

[JonnyV]

Not sure what I did to you Bob…but whatever. You can hold on to your secret knowledge all you want.

[captpetryusn]

"Catching up" meant I no longer had to spend as much time with my son who almost died from the stroke, became septic and almost lost his lower right leg, and I was starting where I left off.......building a smokeless load for quigley in a couple of months. and if I dont, I still want to come and discuss, learn, experience with others.


Lets bury this dead horse.

VR/Pete

[captpetryusn]

BY the way ...........I agree with EVERYONE I need to move to black powder, it just isn't today or tomorrow, as I stated awhile back ....it will be this year ....but ....not before Quigley!

VR/Pete