What am I doing wrong here?

[Leadville Bill]

OP here. Lots of great responses! I'll try to answer all the questions posed so far in this post so bear with me as this will be wordy.

On annealing- I annealed all of the cases first, then lubed with RCBS case slick rolled on a pad, FL sized, then washed and dried. FWIW, the case lengths on 5 randomly picked cases was 2.40" on the nose. Again, they chamber empty in the rifle so I don't think the cases need trimmed. If they do, what do you guys recommend? 2.395"?

On powder compression- As Patchbox noted, these were dummy rounds so no powder so that variable is out. I had ordered a compression plug on order and it's supposed to arrive tomorrow.

On nose diameter and touching the lands- No marks on the 330 Gould or the 405 HB. There were some on the 500 grain Schmittzer. That I'm not surprised as it's a long, fat nose. I did the method of determining OAL by using a cleaning rod from the muzzle to the closed block and again with a loose bullet pushed gently into the lands and carefully measuring everything and found that my dummy rounds (which I previously seated to the bottom of the top driving band for each bullet) weren't that far off in terms of bullet seating depth. I made a second set of dummy rounds (again, no powder) and even tried a different expander (a .456" RCBS from a .45-70 set instead of the stock one in my Lyman set) and had the same issues with all three dummy rounds. It might be the nose for the Schmittzer but it's definitely not for the 330 Gould and the 405. I love that photo of the homemade OAL guage- I'll have to make one of those.

On sizing- The 330 Gould I sized to .458", which is how it measured with an analog micrometer. The Schmittzer had been sized and lubed by Lyman but I was surprised to find they were nearly .460" at the base, as was the 405 HB, which I loaded dry and unsized for grins. I knew I was taking a chance with the as-cast 405's but I wasn't expecting the Schmittzer to be that diameter. I'll have to run both of them through my .458" sizer die on my 4500 and see how that changes things. Given that the Gould was having problems and it's such a short bullet, AND it's the correct .458", it may not be the diameter.

On lengthening the case with the FL sizer die - I measured all the OAL's of the 3 NEW dummy rounds, and then I ran each of those puppies through the Lyman FL sizer (with the decapper removed) where they felt like they got sized. Again, same issues failing to fully seat. So I ran them in again, and this time I ran them ALL THE WAY. The OAL didn't seem to change (at least, not to the extent my calipers picked it up). This time the 330 and the 405 chambered, a little snug but they would extract without the rod. The Schmittzer seated a little easier initially but took a good strong thumb push to seat home, and then it would not come out even with thumb pressure on the extractor end. I had to use the shotgun cleaning rod again to tap it out. And yes, this time it had obvious rifling marks so I'm confident the nose is engraving the rifling.

On flaring- Unflared brass chambers fine. If I flare the bare minimum so that I can start any of the three bullets, the empty case will make it about 3/4 of the way in and leave the last 1/2" hanging out. This tells me it's a diameter issue from the bullet expanding/seating, not the FL sizer, which brings me to.....

On the taper crimp die- unfortunately I don't have one. Just the roll crimper. I may need to pick on up. Hopefully that solves the issue as I'd rather spend $30 on that instead of $70 on a Redding FL sizer, which doesn't seem to be the issue based on the empty cases chambering.

So from tonight's experiments, I conclude the Schmittzer needs sizing and probably deeper seating. The 405 and the 330 will work being sized to .458" but unfortunately still need to be fed through the FL sizer to squeeze them down to chamber. Or, I need to try a taper crimp and see if that addresses the expansion at the top.

I think that answers everybody's questions/observations. If I overlooked any, please chime in. As long as my method doesn't result in pressure spikes or case separations I think it will work although I'd like to avoid the extra sizing if I can. Kirk- I PM'd you with my cell # so feel free to call me tomorrow if I'm still missing something.

Thanks guys. I feel like I'm getting this narrowed down a little. LB

[From Along The Trail]

The photo of the depth gauge. I had made that for a job I was working on.

I did make another one. I am not able to take a picture of it at this time. But what I did was just drilled the primer hole out, inserted a screw long enough to have a nut outside and one on the inside. Make sure the case fits the chamber?

Then insert what ever bullet you want in the case. Push in as far as you want, then turn the outside nut up against the rear of the case. That will give you have what depth it is.

[RMulhern]

Shoot PP and you’ll be happier!

[gunlaker]

Bill, on your loaded rounds, what is the diameter right at the case mouth ( after the bullet has been seated )?

You want it to be 0.480" to 0.481" max. Anything bigger and it won't chamber. This is a pretty common problem with new Shiloh Sharps shooters. It's generally caused by a tiny bit too much flare on the case mouth. If you can see the flare it's probably too much. These guns are chambered to tight tolerances which is part of why they shoot so well.

You can get two diameter expander plugs for your dies at Buffalo Arms. If you are using 0.001" neck tension, which is a decent place to start ( and finish ) then get a 0.457"x 0.460" or a 0.458" x 0.461" expander. I think they are around $20.

A very nice way to do things, when seating with neck tension, is to use the Shiloh inline bullet seater. You almost never see anyone talk about them here, but they are the bees knees. When you seat the bullet with this die you'll have pretty much zero runout, and the cartridge will never fail to chamber, as the die was cut with the same reamers used to chamber the rifles. It will seat the bullet and iron out any excess case mouth "bell" all in one go.

Another approach is to just slip fit them once you fireform your brass.

Once you get it all figured out, it'll never happen to you again .

Chris.

[Leadville Bill]

OP here. I figure I owed you guys a range report after all the replies...

I spoke with Kirk and he was a wealth of information. He suggested that I expand the cases not to fit the bullet, but to give it just enough flare to start scraping the chamber when inserting an empty case. That helped immensely. Some of the bullets were snug but most chambered with little to no thumb pushing.

Part of the problem might also be my Lyman expander die. As Kirk pointed out, it's a two-pie design that doesn't lend itself to uniform expansion. Taking his advice, I'm going to order a BACO expander die; just haven't gotten around to it yet.

The loaded rounds (some of which needed a light squeeze with my FL sizer to chamber a little better) measure about .4815" at the case mouth. I did use my 24" drop tube and new compression die (a Montana Precision Swaging stem mounted in an old RCBS decap die that a friend and I drilled out and threaded with a lathe) and got about 1/8" compression in to accommodate the bullets, which were a mix of 330 Gould, 500 grain Lee 459-500-3R and the aforementioned Schmittzers, all sized to .458".

My first visit out was disappointing, with the rifle shooting about minute of garbage can lid at 100 yards. I don't blame the rifle though- I'm sure it's something wrong with my hold, eyesight, case annealing, handloads or all four. I'm in the process of ordering a good Brooks mold and getting some real alloy rather than the range scrap I've been using to take as many variables out and then start working the problem from there. I was pleasantly surprised that as the rifle heated up from shooting, the chambering problem seemed to improve, which was counterintuitive to me- I thought it would get harder as the chamber fouling accumulated. FWIW, I wiped after about every 3rd or 5th shot- I'm sure I'll get in a rhythm as I shoot more.

Thanks again for your help. It was good to finally be out shooting even if it's not where I want to be yet.

[RB1Shooter]

Looking at the pic, it appears your bore ride to wide. Take a pair of calipers and measure bullet diameter about a 1/10" above top driving band. My guess is it's . 452" or larger.

The pic appears to show about 0.250" between top of driving band and bottom of lands mark.

[Leadville Bill]

I'm confused- what "pic" are you referring to? I didn't post any photographs.

LB

[Clarence]

Leadville,

Looks like you're changing lots of things. You'll make a lot more progress if you change one thing at a time.

Are you shooting from a steady rear and pulling the rifle into your shoulder the same every time and not jerking the trigger? Almost any load should shoot better than you mentioned.

Clarence

[martinibelgian]

Not if you wipe every 3rd - 5th shot...

[JonnyV]

Need to wipe on every shot. MPro7 2 or 3 patches.

[Lumpy Grits]

Need to wipe on every shot. MPro7 2 or 3 patches.

This or at least a blow tube after EACH shot....

[Leadville Bill]

DD- I sent the mold back to Midway for a refund. There have been enough complaints online about Lyman’s customer service and buyers being told bad molds were still in spec that I wasn’t going to waste my time. I’m more irritated at Midway for selling me a mold that had obviously been used and returned before (it was marked Blemished, and now I know why) but that’s another story.

LG- part of the reason I’ve been holding off on my order for an expander from BACO is I’m waiting for their 45-90 blow tubes to be back in stock.

I’m thinking I could just get a 45-70 tube or a longer 45 (they have a 3” cased 45) and just seat as far as it will go. Thoughts? I thought about trimming the 3” case to 2.4” but I don’t know if it will bit a trimmer with the pipe attachment.

LB

[bpcrshooter62]

Hi try Shiloh or MVA one of them may have a blow-tube in stock for you. Problem solved