Do you need a 900 yard Load?
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Do you need a 900 yard Load?
This has been a topic of discussion a few times at various long rang matches I have attended for years.
It seems that one can have a very good load at 800 yards produces a good score. The same load doesn’t do so shiny at 900 yards, for various reasons. Most often it’s believed conditions are the reason. Yet as the day progresses to 1000 yards conditions are often similar to 900 or more pronounced. This is often the case at Byers, Raton and Phoenix. Yet the same load used at 900 shoots a better score at 1000.
So do we need a 900 yard load, me thinks yes, possibly, maybe. This is a good question for us Creedmoor shooters both traditional on steel and especially so on paper.
At my match on Labor Day weekend I shot a decent 800 yard score but well below my capabilities. Mostly I attribute this to match jitters and all the work putting on this historic event. Possibly also still getting used to a brand new rifle with about only 45-55 rounds through it before the match started.
By 900 I was more comfortable and posted the top score at that range, my best ever in fact.
At 1000 myself and Don Johnson tied with the 2nd highest score but 8 points behind Dave Gullo who bested John and I by 10 points. In fact Dave set a new Range record of 48/50.
My reasons for posting this question today stems from my own less than stellar performance at Byers a good part of this I can attribute to all the work we put in at the range the days before the match, Michael, myself and Rick. Trying to sleep at night and worrying about what did we forget. Targets, shot markers, repair tape, scoring disks, spares of both shot markers and score disks. Water, coolers and paste for new centers, new centers located station for pasting. Lots going on. The fact this was my 3rd match of the month from the ranch to Big Whisky, back to Gillette then Byers, making dang sure I didn’t forget anything. Like the white board, squading sheet, score cards, envelopes for shooters packet.
But in my haste to get to Byers 3 days early to get stuff done, I had to reload ammo from my match after getting home from Big Whisky. In my haste I dropped powder and used the wrong setting on my charge master. 92.5 grs of 1.5 Swiss vrs what my correct load should of been 93.5 grs.
I only discovered this when I got home, my notes confirmed that I had noted the compression was avg .080 less than my original fire form loads. I at the time contributed this to the expanded case from fire forming. I was categorically wrong on that. This starline 45-100 is a snug perfect fit brand new to the Shiloh chamber. I had annealed the brass before loading the original fire form loads. A quick inspection upon my return from Byers found the capacity of the fire case was unchanged from the new case. I slip fit my original Paul Jones Money bullet with a slightest of belling. That I remove while seating the bullet with a Vickerman seating die.
The results were telling on this reduced load, at 800 it shot ok scores in the conditions a 90 day 1, day two a 61 in some ripping conditions. Not great but not horrible. At 900 the wheels fell off and scores were in the tank, while my shooting partner Lu, was racking up damn fine scores with her new Shiloh 45-90. At 1000 the poor scores continued, I knew something was wrong. I had one of the better spotters, with Jimbo spotting for both Lucinda and myself.
My load wasn’t up to snuff from 900 on out, that was apparent.
So do we need a 900 yard load? Or will a 900 yard load suffice at 800, and 1000 yards.
Kenny Wasserburger
It seems that one can have a very good load at 800 yards produces a good score. The same load doesn’t do so shiny at 900 yards, for various reasons. Most often it’s believed conditions are the reason. Yet as the day progresses to 1000 yards conditions are often similar to 900 or more pronounced. This is often the case at Byers, Raton and Phoenix. Yet the same load used at 900 shoots a better score at 1000.
So do we need a 900 yard load, me thinks yes, possibly, maybe. This is a good question for us Creedmoor shooters both traditional on steel and especially so on paper.
At my match on Labor Day weekend I shot a decent 800 yard score but well below my capabilities. Mostly I attribute this to match jitters and all the work putting on this historic event. Possibly also still getting used to a brand new rifle with about only 45-55 rounds through it before the match started.
By 900 I was more comfortable and posted the top score at that range, my best ever in fact.
At 1000 myself and Don Johnson tied with the 2nd highest score but 8 points behind Dave Gullo who bested John and I by 10 points. In fact Dave set a new Range record of 48/50.
My reasons for posting this question today stems from my own less than stellar performance at Byers a good part of this I can attribute to all the work we put in at the range the days before the match, Michael, myself and Rick. Trying to sleep at night and worrying about what did we forget. Targets, shot markers, repair tape, scoring disks, spares of both shot markers and score disks. Water, coolers and paste for new centers, new centers located station for pasting. Lots going on. The fact this was my 3rd match of the month from the ranch to Big Whisky, back to Gillette then Byers, making dang sure I didn’t forget anything. Like the white board, squading sheet, score cards, envelopes for shooters packet.
But in my haste to get to Byers 3 days early to get stuff done, I had to reload ammo from my match after getting home from Big Whisky. In my haste I dropped powder and used the wrong setting on my charge master. 92.5 grs of 1.5 Swiss vrs what my correct load should of been 93.5 grs.
I only discovered this when I got home, my notes confirmed that I had noted the compression was avg .080 less than my original fire form loads. I at the time contributed this to the expanded case from fire forming. I was categorically wrong on that. This starline 45-100 is a snug perfect fit brand new to the Shiloh chamber. I had annealed the brass before loading the original fire form loads. A quick inspection upon my return from Byers found the capacity of the fire case was unchanged from the new case. I slip fit my original Paul Jones Money bullet with a slightest of belling. That I remove while seating the bullet with a Vickerman seating die.
The results were telling on this reduced load, at 800 it shot ok scores in the conditions a 90 day 1, day two a 61 in some ripping conditions. Not great but not horrible. At 900 the wheels fell off and scores were in the tank, while my shooting partner Lu, was racking up damn fine scores with her new Shiloh 45-90. At 1000 the poor scores continued, I knew something was wrong. I had one of the better spotters, with Jimbo spotting for both Lucinda and myself.
My load wasn’t up to snuff from 900 on out, that was apparent.
So do we need a 900 yard load? Or will a 900 yard load suffice at 800, and 1000 yards.
Kenny Wasserburger
We'll raise up our Glasses against Evil Forces, Singing, Whiskey for my men, Beer for my horses.
Wyoming Territory Sharps Shooter
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- powderburner
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Re: Do you need a 900 yard Load?
So if your load had been correct would the 800-900 problem still occured?f
I have seen that and experienced that at promitory and at my range at home. The only thing different is some days the 900 is easier and other days the 800 is.
At home I don’t shoot in match conditions just switch back and forth. With the only down time being sight changes.
And also my targets are not all perfectly scaled( which would be nice,and more consistant).but the seesawing hits on targets are not consistant.
At promitory the creedmoore targets are consistant, and I have spent 3-4 days there prior practicing and found if the 800 was easy the nine suffered .if the 900 was easy the 800 suffered. While there was not much change at 1000.
I have never used different loads but like you have considered it.
This could shape up to be a c
Good topic.
I have seen that and experienced that at promitory and at my range at home. The only thing different is some days the 900 is easier and other days the 800 is.
At home I don’t shoot in match conditions just switch back and forth. With the only down time being sight changes.
And also my targets are not all perfectly scaled( which would be nice,and more consistant).but the seesawing hits on targets are not consistant.
At promitory the creedmoore targets are consistant, and I have spent 3-4 days there prior practicing and found if the 800 was easy the nine suffered .if the 900 was easy the 800 suffered. While there was not much change at 1000.
I have never used different loads but like you have considered it.
This could shape up to be a c
Good topic.
Dean Becker
only one gun and they are 74 s
3rd asst. flunky,high desert chapter F.E.S.
MYWEIGH scale merchant
reclining member of O-G-A-N-T
only one gun and they are 74 s
3rd asst. flunky,high desert chapter F.E.S.
MYWEIGH scale merchant
reclining member of O-G-A-N-T
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Re: Do you need a 900 yard Load?
What does Dave Gullo Do? Does he have a different load for different ranges?
I had the pleasure to compete against him back in 2006 when the American team came to Brisbane for the World Creedmoor Match.
Circumstances conspired such that I fluked a win at 600 and second at 800 but I never got a chance to discuss loads with him.
I had the pleasure to compete against him back in 2006 when the American team came to Brisbane for the World Creedmoor Match.
Circumstances conspired such that I fluked a win at 600 and second at 800 but I never got a chance to discuss loads with him.
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Re: Do you need a 900 yard Load?
That’s a good question, the proper load at the 150th Creedmoor Anniversary proved very good at 800-900-1000 especially so at 900. Granted this is a 12x6 target with a 36 inch bull. Twice as wide as our current paper Creedmoor target. So keep that in mind.powderburner wrote: ↑Sun Nov 03, 2024 11:15 am So if your load had been correct would the 800-900 problem still occured?f
I have seen that and experienced that at promitory and at my range at home. The only thing different is some days the 900 is easier and other days the 800 is.
At home I don’t shoot in match conditions just switch back and forth. With the only down time being sight changes.
And also my targets are not all perfectly scaled( which would be nice,and more consistant).but the seesawing hits on targets are not consistant.
At promitory the creedmoore targets are consistant, and I have spent 3-4 days there prior practicing and found if the 800 was easy the nine suffered .if the 900 was easy the 800 suffered. While there was not much change at 1000.
I have never used different loads but like you have considered it.
This could shape up to be a c
Good topic.
Yet there were plenty of misses at my match. Getting caught in a reverse condition could prove problematic. For many.
The majority of my misses at Byers were windage related and just off the target. Though I did have several unexplained ups and downs, but so did everyone else.
Is there a specific velocity range needed at 900 versus the other two yard lines.
As two what Dave uses I can’t say with any certainty.
Kenny Wasserburger
We'll raise up our Glasses against Evil Forces, Singing, Whiskey for my men, Beer for my horses.
Wyoming Territory Sharps Shooter
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Re: Do you need a 900 yard Load?
Somewhere between 800 and 1000 yards is where our bullets are going through their “magnus moment” and dropping fully subsonic. Bullet design almost surely plays a major role in performance at these ranges.
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Re: Do you need a 900 yard Load?
Now that would surpise me . At 800 the bullet would probably be below 900 fps, never mind at 900 yds. So you would already be out of the bottom end of transonic (which is supposed to be between 1380 and 900 fps) at around 800. Well, at least according to my ballistic calculator. You'd need to be shooting a 540gr bullet with a BC of 0.5 to - barely - exceed 900 fps at 800. And that BC is pretty optimistic... As is 1400 fps.
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Re: Do you need a 900 yard Load?
Remember the altitude we shoot at, plus very low relative humidity. And the wind is seldom cooperative.martinibelgian wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2024 1:34 pm Now that would surpise me . At 800 the bullet would probably be below 900 fps, never mind at 900 yds. So you would already be out of the bottom end of transonic (which is supposed to be between 1380 and 900 fps) at around 800. Well, at least according to my ballistic calculator. You'd need to be shooting a 540gr bullet with a BC of 0.5 to - barely - exceed 900 fps at 800. And that BC is pretty optimistic... As is 1400 fps.
My muzzle velocity is 1430 with my 110. I have yet to chronograph the 100. With the 533gr bullets of 14.5-1. This alloy has proven superior at 1 mile, just in reduced elevation requirements.
Kenny.
We'll raise up our Glasses against Evil Forces, Singing, Whiskey for my men, Beer for my horses.
Wyoming Territory Sharps Shooter
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Re: Do you need a 900 yard Load?
Further muddling up the waters is this little tidbit...
The speed of sound varies depending on temperature, humidity, and air pressure. At sea level, the speed of sound is approximately:
*Speed of Sound*
*Sea Level*
- 768 miles per hour (mph)
- 1,125 feet per second (ft/s)
At high-altitude locations like Raton Pass, New Mexico (elevation 7,881 feet), the speed of sound is slightly lower due to lower air pressure and temperature:
*Raton Pass, New Mexico*
- 742 mph
- 1,088 ft/s
Please note that these values are approximate, as the speed of sound can fluctuate with weather conditions.
Sources:
- National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA)
- United States Naval Research Laboratory
I pulled the above off the web this morning while texting with Kenny. Our friend Lester (engineer type, no not a train engineer either) is currently eyeball deep in the math of this question. We’ve been messing around with this since Quigley 2023.
With BP shooting, there are lots of instances where a given load will shoot great out to some yardage point and then fall apart after that. Long story short, there are many reasons this happens but the upshot usually involves a bullet dropping out of transonic flight. The same question is bedeviling the modern shooters (2 mile guys) to the point that Brian Litz is using a huge radar and high speed cameras to build what are called “drag profiles” for certain bullets. They are putting big resources into trying to figure this out. Their issue happens far down range, ours happens in the neighborhood of 900 yards.
What would be really cool is if we could get the Ben Avery range for a few days prior to the start of the Desert International so we could run tests with various bullets, twist rates, and velocities. Strap the rifles into lead sleds and start in with the LabRadars and the LongShot cameras and get all the data we can. Zack??
The speed of sound varies depending on temperature, humidity, and air pressure. At sea level, the speed of sound is approximately:
*Speed of Sound*
*Sea Level*
- 768 miles per hour (mph)
- 1,125 feet per second (ft/s)
At high-altitude locations like Raton Pass, New Mexico (elevation 7,881 feet), the speed of sound is slightly lower due to lower air pressure and temperature:
*Raton Pass, New Mexico*
- 742 mph
- 1,088 ft/s
Please note that these values are approximate, as the speed of sound can fluctuate with weather conditions.
Sources:
- National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA)
- United States Naval Research Laboratory
I pulled the above off the web this morning while texting with Kenny. Our friend Lester (engineer type, no not a train engineer either) is currently eyeball deep in the math of this question. We’ve been messing around with this since Quigley 2023.
With BP shooting, there are lots of instances where a given load will shoot great out to some yardage point and then fall apart after that. Long story short, there are many reasons this happens but the upshot usually involves a bullet dropping out of transonic flight. The same question is bedeviling the modern shooters (2 mile guys) to the point that Brian Litz is using a huge radar and high speed cameras to build what are called “drag profiles” for certain bullets. They are putting big resources into trying to figure this out. Their issue happens far down range, ours happens in the neighborhood of 900 yards.
What would be really cool is if we could get the Ben Avery range for a few days prior to the start of the Desert International so we could run tests with various bullets, twist rates, and velocities. Strap the rifles into lead sleds and start in with the LabRadars and the LongShot cameras and get all the data we can. Zack??
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Re: Do you need a 900 yard Load?
That would be great research! A great use of the facilities too
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Re: Do you need a 900 yard Load?
There’s a problem with this idea… The three days leading up to the Desert International match are generally reserved for work parties down in the pits, making new target frames and prepping targets for the upcoming match. No live fires are permitted while work crews are down in the pits.
In order for this to work, there would have to be a vastly increased number of people volunteering for work party detail at night after the live fire research had been conducted. This would hopefully make up the deficit in new target frames and targets for the match.
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Re: Do you need a 900 yard Load?
Don´t get me wrong, I´m not questioning the occurrence, I have a load which shoots great out to 900 and falls apart at 1,000, so I know what you mean.
I'm just questioning the 'probable cause'., as in a bullet flying true during the entire transonic thing from muzzle to 800 yds, and then falling apart when it gets out of that, in calmer waters...
The kolbe twist/ stabilitycalculator does show an area where min. twist required 'peaks' , but that's > 1000 fps
I'm just questioning the 'probable cause'., as in a bullet flying true during the entire transonic thing from muzzle to 800 yds, and then falling apart when it gets out of that, in calmer waters...
The kolbe twist/ stabilitycalculator does show an area where min. twist required 'peaks' , but that's > 1000 fps
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Re: Do you need a 900 yard Load?
Again all good questions, I don’t have the answers, God willing I hope we have a day or two at Ben Avery to do some chronograph testing, to save time and ammo just at 900;yards.martinibelgian wrote: ↑Tue Nov 05, 2024 8:48 am Don´t get me wrong, I´m not questioning the occurrence, I have a load which shoots great out to 900 and falls apart at 1,000, so I know what you mean.
I'm just questioning the 'probable cause'., as in a bullet flying true during the entire transonic thing from muzzle to 800 yds, and then falling apart when it gets out of that, in calmer waters...
The kolbe twist/ stabilitycalculator does show an area where min. twist required 'peaks' , but that's > 1000 fps
The lab Radar will get a real workout as we can catch a couple hundred yards of data. I believe there is something to be learned.
Kenny Wasserburger
We'll raise up our Glasses against Evil Forces, Singing, Whiskey for my men, Beer for my horses.
Wyoming Territory Sharps Shooter
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Re: Do you need a 900 yard Load?
Dear God Kenny, be careful who you ask this question, those that have to tolerate the "CANYON OF DOOM", otherwise know as the 900 yd octagon, are quite testy, said they're going to paint it with a laser & call in air support.
I've got a 45 2.6 & have had days where I tear it up, other days not so much, this is the same load that I went 10/10 in the match several years ago at 1023, they said they were all in the 44" 8 ring or better.Kenny Wasserburger wrote: ↑Sun Nov 03, 2024 10:47 am
So do we need a 900 yard load, me thinks yes, possibly, maybe. This is a good question for us Creedmoor shooters both traditional on steel and especially so on paper.
So do we need a 900 yard load? Or will a 900 yard load suffice at 800, and 1000 yards.
Kenny Wasserburger
560 gr M3 BACO
1342 fps
Swiss 1 1/2
Personally, I feel there's a barrier around that distance that's causing shooters troubles.
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Re: Do you need a 900 yard Load?
Got to give it to you Brian... That is one top quality hologram you have running down in the land equivalent of the Bermuda Triangle. Shots go in.. but they just vanish into the ether
G.
G.
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Re: Do you need a 900 yard Load?
Cowards rule the world these days.
Coward rules & coward customs
To succeed today, all you've got to know is how to blame & how to complain
https://bighillshoots.com/
Coward rules & coward customs
To succeed today, all you've got to know is how to blame & how to complain
https://bighillshoots.com/