2007 shiloh rough rider w/standard heavy 30" barrel

[letfly]

Hi All, 24" vertical stringing at 625 yards. P. Jones creedmoor,Lyman #2, 1 1/2 swiss, 1/8 comp. .030 walters, CCI BR primer. Suggestions? 2007 Shiloh 45-70, standard heavy, 30". Thank You. Letfly.

[bobw]

Dump the #2 alloy and use 1-25 tin to lead, might even need 1 to 20. You asked. Mb

[letfly]

Thanks Bob, will cast and shoot some 20/1 tomorrow.

[Randy Bohannon]

I shoot that bullet in my 2007 Shiloh #1 1874 45-70 69grs Swiss 1.5. It is what all other bullet profiles are compared to for accuracy, 20:1 and 16:1 alloy.

[DeadEye]

Are you 'slip-fitting' or using neck tension? A slight change in neck tension will mess up the vertical. I couldn't get the neck tension consistent and for that reason have always used slip fit.

Paul

[77 sharps]

I would increase the amount of compression. Your powder may be settling during transportation causing velocity variations.

[gunlaker]

One of the easiest ways to have excessive vertical at distance is bad fouling management. This will often show up as a load that shoots nicely at 200 but can't hold the paper at long range. A chronograph is a good tool to tune fouling management.

Chris.

[letfly]

I will try each of the suggestions, fouling control has been too casual. One breath-three breaths, and wiping between each shot. I will try to have a consistent fouling control and a 25-1 bullet to start. Letfly.

[gunlaker]

I would recommend trying 2 damp patches after each shot. You can try all sorts of things as a wiping fluid. I usually use a mix of water soluble oil and water and when it gets cold I mix in a bunch of RV antifreeze to keep the mixture from freezing.

Consistency with wiping will probably help a lot.

Some tips that helped me:

1. wet the patches down and then squeeze out the excess fluid with a potato ricer which is a kitchen appliance that you can get for very little $$$

2. use a nylon brush rather than a jag with the patch. It will work much better. Best is a Tipton brush. The Tipton brushes have a little nib on the end of each bristle instead of a sharp end. This makes it less likely that the patch with get stuck on the brush when it exits the barrel.

3. In hot weather, push the first patch just ahead of the chamber and let it sit. While it's sitting, get your second patch ready and then push that first patch out. This will give extra time to loosen up fouling ahead of the chamber. This particular tip was a lifesaver to me.

There are a few other useful ideas, but those will get you down the right path.

Chris.

[Lumpy Grits]

Make sure the back of the forearm is not touching the front of the receiver.

[JonnyV]

Fouling control has a major impact on vertical stringing. At the Quigley this past June, we did some experimenting with a chronograph and changing up the fouling control methods. The little Garmin unit is great for the Quigley range, easily set up and taken down. Doesn't take up much room in the cart either...

Anyway, going from three breaths blow tubing to running a bore wiper followed by a dry patch netted an immediate 30 fps improvement in velocity with the same rifle, same load, two shots one after the other. And yes, the ammo was loaded by a skilled bandleader (DAG4570) on this forum. Likewise, going from one or two wet patches without a dry patch suffered as compared to the same followed by a dry patch to the tune of about 15 fps. One wet patch followed by a dry was not as effective as two wet patches and a dry either in SD or on the target, plus, it fouled out quicker in the heat. A bore wet with wiping solution consistently shot 15 fps slower than a dry bore.

Guys might think that 5 or 15 or 25 fps isn't much, but it's enough to make you miss completely once you get past 400 or so yards. And that's just at a gong match where it don't matter how you hit the target. Looking back at my trip to the Desert International, I feel strongly that my poor showing on some of those relays had a lot to do with fouling control. FWIW, no one at the DI was blow tubing that I saw over 8 days.

Based on fairly compelling, (but admittedly limited) data, I would rank the fouling control methods in this order:

Least effective, blow tubing

Effective, wet bore wipers followed by a dry patch and a chamber mop

Most effective, two wet 3" patches, the second one pulled back to the chamber then pushed out, followed by a dry 3" patch and a chamber mop. I got this method by going back through the forum and printing off every thread that Dan T posted in. Reading through all of that proved to be an immense help. Bruce M also stands out as someone who contributed a lot. It should be noted that wiping with patches will fair poorly with a badly designed jag (Pro Shot comes to mind). The Montana Extreme jag is the way to go as it will keep the whole length of the patch in solid contact with the bore so you get full use of the big 3" patch. Also, by "wet" I mean wrung out just enough that it doesn't drip. Keep a towel on your mat to dry your hands.

Like Bryan said, "you can't over-wipe, but you sure can under-wipe"...

[gunlaker]

JonnyV it looks like you've done the same experiments I did back in the day and got the same results. Good to see someone else using the chronograph for this.

I've always tried to bring up the idea that a chronograph is a great way to test fouling control effectiveness, particularly if you don't have access to long range.

There is also a big difference in how much fluid the various patches would hold. I also tested this a long time ago by saturating sets of 10 patches from various manufacturers and comparing the weight wet vs dry. The best were the 3" round patches that Shiloh sells ( which at the time came from Harlan Sage I believe ), the worst were the 2" Arsenal paper ones.

You are right 15 fps is way too much variation. In a normal 45-70 silhouette load that much variation would go from a center hit to well over the top of a ram.

Chris.

[JonnyV]

Chris, I get three inch patches from Skylineproducts.org. Their outfit hires people with disabilities to make all sorts of cleaning items for medical uses to shooting patches, so forth. The last box I got in was the big 3" square patches.

I did a quickie test on my bench a while back, loading patches and wipers with fluid and then weighing them. Same results you got. I have no idea why anyone likes those arsenal patches but I have a bunch of the 2" ones sitting here I'll likely never use. Maybe they'd be OK in the 06 or the 8mm, they sure ain't worth squat for BP.... In my tests, the 2.5" flannel patch carried about as much fluid as the BACO felt wipers (2). I think the wipers do just fine, lots of the top guys use them, I just don't like doing laundry.

The other thing that good fouling control does is shut down leading in your barrel. Bad fouling control equals problems, including leading.

[charlie young]

JonnyV, are those 2" arsenal patches the ones we used to get from Arizona Sharpshooters years ago, or are they the ones that Buffalo Arms was selling at one point, not sure if they still are?

Charlie

[JonnyV]

I got them at the Quigley a couple years ago, do they would either be Buffalo or the other outfit selling there (Sagebrush?)…