New Rifle questions
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RR 11
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- Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2005 3:37 pm
- Location: Central Alabama
New Rifle questions
New rifle on order (last Sept) Hope to have it in time for bear hunt this fall. New to Sharps have a lot of exp. with 45-70 in Marlin and Ruger #1 Have used a 430G Laser Cast gas check over smokless power for hunting in the past. Recomandations on loads would be helpfull, will not have my usual 6 mo to play with a new rifle before hunt. Also rifle is a Hartford 30" med. barrel with set triggers. Prime use will be dear hunting in the south east. Is 30" best for black powder? Thanks Rick
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Old Doe Shooter
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Trigger Dr
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- Joined: Wed Feb 19, 2003 5:10 pm
- Location: Pacific North WET (Port Orchard)
I did some testing for Keith at LazerCast when he first started casting the 45/70 bullets. I found them way too hard for BP velocity.
Get yourself some 500 - 530 gr postell orsomething similiar and load with Black Powder. Shoot these in your Ruger until your Shiloh arrives. It will not be exactly the same but you will have a head start on load development.
Start off with 68 gr of ffg compressed enough to seat the bullet so that it just touches the lands when chambered. DO NOT use the bullet to compress the powder. plkace a wad of some type over the powder, I use milk carton, others use vegetable and/or poly wads. experiment as you have a l;ittle time to spend while waiting.
Shoot black and never go back
Jim
Get yourself some 500 - 530 gr postell orsomething similiar and load with Black Powder. Shoot these in your Ruger until your Shiloh arrives. It will not be exactly the same but you will have a head start on load development.
Start off with 68 gr of ffg compressed enough to seat the bullet so that it just touches the lands when chambered. DO NOT use the bullet to compress the powder. plkace a wad of some type over the powder, I use milk carton, others use vegetable and/or poly wads. experiment as you have a l;ittle time to spend while waiting.
Shoot black and never go back
Jim
Direct ALL e-Mail to jimrmilner@juno.com
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RR 11,
I am shooting a Hartford 45/70, using Black powder and 20:1 cast lead bullets. Ive tried smokeless and Pyrodex, and BP rules. THe other two powders are good enough to fireform cases with, since BP is hard to get and more expensive.
Heres detailed, long winded load data, just reading this post might keep you busy until your rifle arrives. Ive spent all weekend reloading and shooting and this is also my "logbook" if you will, so I can refer back to it. I get on the net about once a week, and one scheduled stop is the shiloh forum. Figured Id kill two birds with one stone - logbook and post. Ive learned most of what I know about BPCR here, and then started just Doing the things learned here and seeing what works for me and my rifle or not.
Black Elk Hartford 45/70 Shiloh Sharps Load of 5/1/05:
Over all length: 2.850 inches
Barrel: 30 inches 1:19 Twist .4571 bore
cases - winchester 45/70, trimmed 2.093 (measured from rim base to case mouth) was trying for 2.095 but this is where they ended up.
Primer- Federal 215M ("mag-numb" match)
wads: Punched with montana precision die
.030 hard cardboard, over compressed powder
.001 wax paper, placed on top of cardboard before bullet is seated
.003 red vellum paper, placed on bottom of case to keep powder out of primer. Red so I can see it down in that there 45 caliber hole, and when I blow the flakes out of the gun after firing.
Powder- 70 grains by volume, GOEX FFG, Drop Tubed 36 inches in a .250 Inside Diameter tube, compressed.320 with montana precision compression die.
Bullet: lyman postell 535 +/- grains, cast .459
LUBE - SPG
By gosh, its a 45-70 not a 45-67 or 45-68......
Bullet Seating depth is determined by building the load stack on 70 GR FFG to where the bullet is seated .680 into the case so that all the lube grooves are covered and the top of the bearing surface of the bullet is just above the case mouth so that if i desired to lightly crimp it, i could. Bullet is not seated to "touch the lands" becase case rims vary as much as .004 on my brass. Rounds chamber well if the blow tube is used. To develop the first round, I seat the bullet with thumb pressure (ouch) and assure that I can feel the bullet bottom out on the wad/powder. I watch it and make sure that compressed air has not moved it, then I measure the overall length. I then put the round in my press, and set the bullet seater doe to where the bullet seater is firmly touching the bullet and lock things down. Note that this "dummy round" is not going to be accurate to shoot because it will have some run out since I used my bare hands for a reloading press. I do this so I absolutely know that my load design is not going to have an air space between the bullet and the powder. You can feel the bullet "bump" the wad/powder this way.
When shooting these loads I blow three long times after each shot, inspect bore for junk, and chamber for moisture/spit. I run a patch through if accuracy degrades, or when shoulder starts to hurt. seems to be about 20 rounds.
-----------------------------------------
Equipment Etc:
lyman postell bullet mould, Bullets are lubed with SPG and loaded as .459 cast. lubed in a pan, or lubed by hand while watching the weather channel.
Lyman case trimmer (yuck)
Starret Dial Caliper, Starret one inch micrometer.
RCBS stock 45/70 dies, purchased at a gun shop, decapper removed, and sizer die set to work .700 of the brass from the moment that resistance is first felt between the brass in the die. this is done by putting the case in the die and pushing it by hand until it stops. Then I mark the case with a sharpie, measure .700 from the mark towards the rim, and make another mark. It will be difficult to pull that case back out with your bare hands if you get to zealous cramming it in there. I do it this way so I have a known number/data , so I can repeat the process if I desire to change things. (elimination of voodoo) After screwing the die in the press I run the brass into the die to where the second mark just goes into the die. Youll have to peek up under there with a flashlight if youre using a Rockchucker - I am also lubing the cases necks on the OUTSIDE with rcbs case lube prior. My cases are deprimed by hand at the range. I Make sure no RCBS lube gets into the case neck/mouth because it is so slippery that if youre running minimal case neck tension, the bullet will try to "pump" its way out of seating depth on the cusion of Trapped/compressed air in the loaded round. This would leave a dangerous void between the bullet and the powder/wad. I think the Redding neck die sets with the neck tensioner bushings are a better and safer way of controlling things, this just how I am doing it in interim with the RCBS as issued retail Dies. The amount of neck sizing done using the full length resizer is going to vary from reloader to reloader. Im trying to get just enough neck tension to keep the bullet safely in the case, and so compressed air can not move it. .003 halved is .0015 so im not gripping those bullets much with the brass. I worry somewhat that if there is air trapped in the case and the sun warms them up while on the firing line that they might rise up.
RCBS 5-10 scale (for comparison REFERANCE ONLY)
OX yoke Brass volumetric powder measure set at 70 grains
Lyman 55 powder measure with copper powder hopper, set where two cycles of the handle yields 70 grains (by volume) goex ffg. WIth this current lot of Goex, the RCBS scale shows the 70 grain volumetric charge to be 71.4gr in Weight I just like to compare. I load by VOLUME, not by weight. I am watching that multiple cycles of the powder measure is not condensing the powder charge. So I weigh occasionally to see if anything is changing. All my powder is the same lot, so I am "kind of" expecting each can to have the same general properties in relation to weight and voulume. its my analysis that a pound of powder doesnt last long enough in the lyman for powder to settle and make a diffence in the charge. My gosh that powder goes into those cases as fast as gasoline in a chevy muscle car with a 4 barrel carb. Ive developed a full pound a week Black powder habit.
Again, Im relying on VOLUME of the FFG in my ox yoke measure, and each charge from the lyman goes into the ox yoke, and then from the ox yoke volumetric measure into the funnel of the drop tube.
Drop tube: home made 36 inches long, copper tubing, copper funnel soldered on top, little copper bell that fits over the casemouth soldered on the bottom -inside diameter of drop tube is .250, outside diameter is .375-ish
CASE: winchester, fireformed to the hartford chamber , neck sized after with a .456 expander (measured my stock RCBS with a micrometer). Cases are trimmed to 2.093, and primer flash hole has been drilled out on a unimat lathe with a #43 drill which is .089 Diameter. Would have like a different case length, but this is what the batch of cases required to get them all the same and cleaned up, and the (my) lyman case trimer is not capable of holding a very good tolerance. Primer pocket has been chamfered, flash hole deburred on the inside of the case, case neck has been de-burred out and in. I bell the case mouth the least amount possible. If I can find a way not to bell it, I would not bell the case mouth. I do not crimp the loaded round either. After all, Im shooting a sharps single shot. If the bell is enough to where the round wont slide reliably in the gun, I run them into the full length sizer and gently work the bell down. This is a pain, and is why I shoot boat tail bullets in other rifles- so I dont ever have to deal with the silly process of belling a case mouth. Gotta a be a way to eliminate this mouth belling step????
Using the Lyman Postell 535gr bullet. My mold is dropping them at .459 using the 20:1 lead/tin alloy. Im an analytical fella, and I checked the dimensions of these bullets, and I am not sizing them because they are not "round". If the mould was dropping nice truely cylindrical bullets I would probably size them .459 and use SPG lube in the sizer die . As it is right now I am pan/hand lubing them and the Shiloh Rifle Barrel is the "reziser die". The mould is a good starter mould, but it aint capable of throwing a cylindrical slug. I am wondering if its necesarry that a mold do so? Seems to me, that if it isnt a cylinder, then the weight is not going to be balanced about the axis of the projectile. May work on rams at 500 but Ill bet it cant hang out there at 1000. In time I will purchase a paul Jones creedmore Mould. I have slugged my bore and its .4571 what I measure across a slug that is driven from the breech and out the muzzle. bullet is .0019 larger than the steel of the barrel.
My cases are winchester, and upon examination with Dial calipers on the rim, I have noticed that the rim thickness varies from case to case, and since the rifle headspaces on the Rim, its the muzzle end of the Rim that controls just where the bullet sits in relationship to the Lands. Note that The normal Rockchucker press, it controls the overall length of the cartridge and also the relationship of the bullet to the lands by using the Falling Block side of the rim on the 45/70 case. SInce this is the reality, I can not have confidence that i can seat my bullet to just touch the lands. I might touch the lands, but I cant ever control just how much lead is crammed into them since the rim tolerance is in question, and the rockchucker datum is different than the Chamber Datum. 22 rimfire competitors measure the rim thickness of each round and sort accordingly. Yuck. Yuck.
I also experimented this weekend to see just "where" a lyman postell bullet touches when it finds the lands of my rifle, and it touches on the cylindrical part of the bullet just forward of the first lube grove, and the parabola/ogive nose of the postell sits inside the bore and doesnt touch a thing, except fouling.
After this bit o research I decided to seat the bullet to where all the lube groves are covered and in fact all the cylindrical part of the postell is seated in the case. My loaded round is 2.850 long. I set the bullet .680 into the case mouth. This mandates a compressed load of .320 with current setup.
Using a 36 inch drop tube, I am dropping exactly 70 grains of Goex FFG into a case that is 2.093 inches long. I have drilled out my primer holes to .089 because they were not all the same size and shape. In fact, some primer holes on one batch of cases had "chads" hanging out into the inside of the case. these little tabs of brass had melted themsleve and flapped over causing a lump and I could never get them to break loose and discarded those cases.
On the inside of the case I have a thin paper wad over the primer hole that is .003 thick that I punched with my WAD PUNCH that was obtained from buffalo arms. Im using the Federal 215 Magnum match primer, and yes it does pop a hole in the thin red vellum paper wad and detonate the powder. I do this because I do not desire the powder to be down inside the primer. Doing this decreased my group sizes, and I do not understand exactly why,unless it forces a consistancy because the primer has to do the same thing, everytime it detonates. Others have advised me to simply use CCI bencrest primer or Federal 210m primer and do away with this tedios primer hole wad thing. Everything is working so well right now, I hate to change anything.
On top of the 70 grains of Goex Powder, I have a .030 hard cardboard wad that I punched with the handy wad puncher, which screws into my Rock chucker press. Once this wad is on the powder, I compress it .320 and listen to the horrible crunching sounds it makes. Then I place a .001 wax paper on top of the cardboard so the bullet cant stick to the cardboard wad. When I blow tube the gun, I watch for flakes of all these silly wads to come out, and I visually inspect before loading the next shot. All this trash blows out on detonation, and any remains of little primer wads come out when blowing the tube. I chose Red vellum so I could see it, and yes, newspaper would works just as well.
Last weekend the gun was shooting a two inch group off a bench rest. This weekend after all this hogwash, the gun is shooting 1.5 inches. Im not changing anything until Im a more experience sharps shooter, have better sights, and then can assess what needs to be changed.
Im waxing rams with the factory sight on the thing, nailed my first turkeys with this load as well.When/if it will shoot a one inch group, Ill call it "Done". Reloading is a drag!, Ram busting, antler gathering is where its at.
Tim
I am shooting a Hartford 45/70, using Black powder and 20:1 cast lead bullets. Ive tried smokeless and Pyrodex, and BP rules. THe other two powders are good enough to fireform cases with, since BP is hard to get and more expensive.
Heres detailed, long winded load data, just reading this post might keep you busy until your rifle arrives. Ive spent all weekend reloading and shooting and this is also my "logbook" if you will, so I can refer back to it. I get on the net about once a week, and one scheduled stop is the shiloh forum. Figured Id kill two birds with one stone - logbook and post. Ive learned most of what I know about BPCR here, and then started just Doing the things learned here and seeing what works for me and my rifle or not.
Black Elk Hartford 45/70 Shiloh Sharps Load of 5/1/05:
Over all length: 2.850 inches
Barrel: 30 inches 1:19 Twist .4571 bore
cases - winchester 45/70, trimmed 2.093 (measured from rim base to case mouth) was trying for 2.095 but this is where they ended up.
Primer- Federal 215M ("mag-numb" match)
wads: Punched with montana precision die
.030 hard cardboard, over compressed powder
.001 wax paper, placed on top of cardboard before bullet is seated
.003 red vellum paper, placed on bottom of case to keep powder out of primer. Red so I can see it down in that there 45 caliber hole, and when I blow the flakes out of the gun after firing.
Powder- 70 grains by volume, GOEX FFG, Drop Tubed 36 inches in a .250 Inside Diameter tube, compressed.320 with montana precision compression die.
Bullet: lyman postell 535 +/- grains, cast .459
LUBE - SPG
By gosh, its a 45-70 not a 45-67 or 45-68......
Bullet Seating depth is determined by building the load stack on 70 GR FFG to where the bullet is seated .680 into the case so that all the lube grooves are covered and the top of the bearing surface of the bullet is just above the case mouth so that if i desired to lightly crimp it, i could. Bullet is not seated to "touch the lands" becase case rims vary as much as .004 on my brass. Rounds chamber well if the blow tube is used. To develop the first round, I seat the bullet with thumb pressure (ouch) and assure that I can feel the bullet bottom out on the wad/powder. I watch it and make sure that compressed air has not moved it, then I measure the overall length. I then put the round in my press, and set the bullet seater doe to where the bullet seater is firmly touching the bullet and lock things down. Note that this "dummy round" is not going to be accurate to shoot because it will have some run out since I used my bare hands for a reloading press. I do this so I absolutely know that my load design is not going to have an air space between the bullet and the powder. You can feel the bullet "bump" the wad/powder this way.
When shooting these loads I blow three long times after each shot, inspect bore for junk, and chamber for moisture/spit. I run a patch through if accuracy degrades, or when shoulder starts to hurt. seems to be about 20 rounds.
-----------------------------------------
Equipment Etc:
lyman postell bullet mould, Bullets are lubed with SPG and loaded as .459 cast. lubed in a pan, or lubed by hand while watching the weather channel.
Lyman case trimmer (yuck)
Starret Dial Caliper, Starret one inch micrometer.
RCBS stock 45/70 dies, purchased at a gun shop, decapper removed, and sizer die set to work .700 of the brass from the moment that resistance is first felt between the brass in the die. this is done by putting the case in the die and pushing it by hand until it stops. Then I mark the case with a sharpie, measure .700 from the mark towards the rim, and make another mark. It will be difficult to pull that case back out with your bare hands if you get to zealous cramming it in there. I do it this way so I have a known number/data , so I can repeat the process if I desire to change things. (elimination of voodoo) After screwing the die in the press I run the brass into the die to where the second mark just goes into the die. Youll have to peek up under there with a flashlight if youre using a Rockchucker - I am also lubing the cases necks on the OUTSIDE with rcbs case lube prior. My cases are deprimed by hand at the range. I Make sure no RCBS lube gets into the case neck/mouth because it is so slippery that if youre running minimal case neck tension, the bullet will try to "pump" its way out of seating depth on the cusion of Trapped/compressed air in the loaded round. This would leave a dangerous void between the bullet and the powder/wad. I think the Redding neck die sets with the neck tensioner bushings are a better and safer way of controlling things, this just how I am doing it in interim with the RCBS as issued retail Dies. The amount of neck sizing done using the full length resizer is going to vary from reloader to reloader. Im trying to get just enough neck tension to keep the bullet safely in the case, and so compressed air can not move it. .003 halved is .0015 so im not gripping those bullets much with the brass. I worry somewhat that if there is air trapped in the case and the sun warms them up while on the firing line that they might rise up.
RCBS 5-10 scale (for comparison REFERANCE ONLY)
OX yoke Brass volumetric powder measure set at 70 grains
Lyman 55 powder measure with copper powder hopper, set where two cycles of the handle yields 70 grains (by volume) goex ffg. WIth this current lot of Goex, the RCBS scale shows the 70 grain volumetric charge to be 71.4gr in Weight I just like to compare. I load by VOLUME, not by weight. I am watching that multiple cycles of the powder measure is not condensing the powder charge. So I weigh occasionally to see if anything is changing. All my powder is the same lot, so I am "kind of" expecting each can to have the same general properties in relation to weight and voulume. its my analysis that a pound of powder doesnt last long enough in the lyman for powder to settle and make a diffence in the charge. My gosh that powder goes into those cases as fast as gasoline in a chevy muscle car with a 4 barrel carb. Ive developed a full pound a week Black powder habit.
Again, Im relying on VOLUME of the FFG in my ox yoke measure, and each charge from the lyman goes into the ox yoke, and then from the ox yoke volumetric measure into the funnel of the drop tube.
Drop tube: home made 36 inches long, copper tubing, copper funnel soldered on top, little copper bell that fits over the casemouth soldered on the bottom -inside diameter of drop tube is .250, outside diameter is .375-ish
CASE: winchester, fireformed to the hartford chamber , neck sized after with a .456 expander (measured my stock RCBS with a micrometer). Cases are trimmed to 2.093, and primer flash hole has been drilled out on a unimat lathe with a #43 drill which is .089 Diameter. Would have like a different case length, but this is what the batch of cases required to get them all the same and cleaned up, and the (my) lyman case trimer is not capable of holding a very good tolerance. Primer pocket has been chamfered, flash hole deburred on the inside of the case, case neck has been de-burred out and in. I bell the case mouth the least amount possible. If I can find a way not to bell it, I would not bell the case mouth. I do not crimp the loaded round either. After all, Im shooting a sharps single shot. If the bell is enough to where the round wont slide reliably in the gun, I run them into the full length sizer and gently work the bell down. This is a pain, and is why I shoot boat tail bullets in other rifles- so I dont ever have to deal with the silly process of belling a case mouth. Gotta a be a way to eliminate this mouth belling step????
Using the Lyman Postell 535gr bullet. My mold is dropping them at .459 using the 20:1 lead/tin alloy. Im an analytical fella, and I checked the dimensions of these bullets, and I am not sizing them because they are not "round". If the mould was dropping nice truely cylindrical bullets I would probably size them .459 and use SPG lube in the sizer die . As it is right now I am pan/hand lubing them and the Shiloh Rifle Barrel is the "reziser die". The mould is a good starter mould, but it aint capable of throwing a cylindrical slug. I am wondering if its necesarry that a mold do so? Seems to me, that if it isnt a cylinder, then the weight is not going to be balanced about the axis of the projectile. May work on rams at 500 but Ill bet it cant hang out there at 1000. In time I will purchase a paul Jones creedmore Mould. I have slugged my bore and its .4571 what I measure across a slug that is driven from the breech and out the muzzle. bullet is .0019 larger than the steel of the barrel.
My cases are winchester, and upon examination with Dial calipers on the rim, I have noticed that the rim thickness varies from case to case, and since the rifle headspaces on the Rim, its the muzzle end of the Rim that controls just where the bullet sits in relationship to the Lands. Note that The normal Rockchucker press, it controls the overall length of the cartridge and also the relationship of the bullet to the lands by using the Falling Block side of the rim on the 45/70 case. SInce this is the reality, I can not have confidence that i can seat my bullet to just touch the lands. I might touch the lands, but I cant ever control just how much lead is crammed into them since the rim tolerance is in question, and the rockchucker datum is different than the Chamber Datum. 22 rimfire competitors measure the rim thickness of each round and sort accordingly. Yuck. Yuck.
I also experimented this weekend to see just "where" a lyman postell bullet touches when it finds the lands of my rifle, and it touches on the cylindrical part of the bullet just forward of the first lube grove, and the parabola/ogive nose of the postell sits inside the bore and doesnt touch a thing, except fouling.
After this bit o research I decided to seat the bullet to where all the lube groves are covered and in fact all the cylindrical part of the postell is seated in the case. My loaded round is 2.850 long. I set the bullet .680 into the case mouth. This mandates a compressed load of .320 with current setup.
Using a 36 inch drop tube, I am dropping exactly 70 grains of Goex FFG into a case that is 2.093 inches long. I have drilled out my primer holes to .089 because they were not all the same size and shape. In fact, some primer holes on one batch of cases had "chads" hanging out into the inside of the case. these little tabs of brass had melted themsleve and flapped over causing a lump and I could never get them to break loose and discarded those cases.
On the inside of the case I have a thin paper wad over the primer hole that is .003 thick that I punched with my WAD PUNCH that was obtained from buffalo arms. Im using the Federal 215 Magnum match primer, and yes it does pop a hole in the thin red vellum paper wad and detonate the powder. I do this because I do not desire the powder to be down inside the primer. Doing this decreased my group sizes, and I do not understand exactly why,unless it forces a consistancy because the primer has to do the same thing, everytime it detonates. Others have advised me to simply use CCI bencrest primer or Federal 210m primer and do away with this tedios primer hole wad thing. Everything is working so well right now, I hate to change anything.
On top of the 70 grains of Goex Powder, I have a .030 hard cardboard wad that I punched with the handy wad puncher, which screws into my Rock chucker press. Once this wad is on the powder, I compress it .320 and listen to the horrible crunching sounds it makes. Then I place a .001 wax paper on top of the cardboard so the bullet cant stick to the cardboard wad. When I blow tube the gun, I watch for flakes of all these silly wads to come out, and I visually inspect before loading the next shot. All this trash blows out on detonation, and any remains of little primer wads come out when blowing the tube. I chose Red vellum so I could see it, and yes, newspaper would works just as well.
Last weekend the gun was shooting a two inch group off a bench rest. This weekend after all this hogwash, the gun is shooting 1.5 inches. Im not changing anything until Im a more experience sharps shooter, have better sights, and then can assess what needs to be changed.
Im waxing rams with the factory sight on the thing, nailed my first turkeys with this load as well.When/if it will shoot a one inch group, Ill call it "Done". Reloading is a drag!, Ram busting, antler gathering is where its at.
Tim