Shiloh Rifle Forums

Keith the difference between the 357 max and the 35 maynards is striking. The case head diameter of the maynards is .403, the diameter of the 357 .379, that's probably going to mean a 357 case fired in the maynard chamber ( providing the rim diameter of the 357 being so small will allow it to chamber and headspace to where the firing pin can get to it) is likely to come out of the original chamber severely bulged if not split. There's also anywhere from .040 to .5 in difference in case length.
Nobody is disputing the the 35 maynards as being legitimate, but the 357 rem max cartridge is not a 35 maynard.

As to kids shooting. Take a look at the largest number of enrollments in the 4-H program, it's the shooting sports,,, Why? because it's affordable to take 3 kids from the same family to one of those events and let them compete.... Try that with a sillouette or even a buffalo gong match.....

Don, no argument here on those two cases because as I said ,I don't know the difference. Whatever one calls them, if they are similar in dimensions to an original cartridge, they should be allowed. I spend my time trying to get one of these cases to shoot and work on my technique, not trying to come up with something out of the norm(although a 35-40 is different lol).
I think most of us forget that silhouette is a relatively recently contrived shooting event coming on to the scene during the late 1950's/early '60's and most all of us have at least in the beginning tried to apply BUFFALO rifles to this game when these rifles are unneccessarily powerful and can have brutal recoil accompanied by low scores. It's a fun and popular sport that I hope is here to stay but Creedmoor it ain't.
Keith Lay

I did a little book work this morning instead of loading ammo and this is the result:

source is Cartridges of the World



From the NRA silhouette rules:

(d) Cartridges will be of the American black powder era, originally black
powder loaded, manufactured prior to 1896, and originally chambered in
American-manufactured rifles, taking into account normal variations in
types of brass and primers, as well as bore sizes, rifling styles, twist and
chamber dimensions.

It would be hard to convince most reasonable people that there is a significant different between today's commercially available 357 Remington Maximum brass and either the 38 Ballard Extra Long or the the 1882 version of the 35-30 Maynard. I will continue to shoot mine and hope others will step out and do the same.

George Springer

George, I would be willing to bet if one were to take and measure all the 45-70's at any regional or national match, the delta's would range WAY higher than what those figures you posted also. This witch hunt can be chased down a rabbit hole.

Then call it a 38 ballardxl, the 357 max is reasonably close, but it's not a maynard.

There is less dimensional difference in the 35-30, 357 Max and 38 Ballard XL then the .40-65 case many shooters use. For example, the .40-65 Ron Long case that is .050" longer then the original, the Shiloh version that is tighter at the base, not to mention the barrels groove/land dimensions that vary from .393/.400, .396/.403 and .400/.408 depending on who the barrel manufacturer is. Then we could argue all the "tight" chamber cases that are popular today but not typical of original rifles.

The .38 Ballard cartridges started out as rimfire cases with heeled bullets but as time went on they changed to a centerfire case inside lubed bullet with hollow base to upset into the larger .38 bores. I've measured a good many original bores and they are not uniform between brands of rifle or even between different rifles of the same brand. Ask anyone shooting a Springfield trapdoor. Usually the first thing a pair of trapdoor shooters ask each other is what their bores measure and what did you have to do to get it to shoot. (Custom mold, soft alloy, etc...)

I like the idea of a light bullet/caliber to get young or women shooters interested. Especially at midrange matches where there is no fear of not knocking down a 55 lb target at 500 meters. My 38 Ballard XL project is on the back burner for a short time as I have several other rifles in que to build and wring out first. But I do intend to build one for schuetzen in the near future. Frank M.

Sounds like it's going to turn into a arms race like the race gun shooters are putting up with Wonder what a sharps would look like with a comp to reduce recoil

Kurt

Well even with proper name on it, I'm still of the mind there's gonna be some deep dark depression and excessive misery beyond the turkey line...4ft of winddrift at the rams in a 10mph crosswind Gonna be some good scores there....

Now that it's to be named a 38, is it a Hummingbird round or does it still qualify as a Gnat?

Woody

Kurt it's BEEN an arms race for a number of years. Next time you talk to Kirk, ask him how many mercury recoil suppressors he's put in buttstocks(I don't have one btw). Primary and set triggers are reversed, titanium parts to reduce lock times are just the things off the top of my head are done(again, I have not seen the need for these in my guns). All of these things are trivial however compared to the basics of sight picture, shooting technique, reading conditions, and loading quality accurate ammo. In Raton these guns are weighed and examined carefully( granted externally) so it's hard to see how much these things can be much expanded upon.
Keith Lay

Woody wrote:Now that it's to be named a 38, is it a Hummingbird round or does it still qualify as a Gnat?

Woody

How about Woodtick Waster? Or maybe FlySwatter?

Brent,

Let's see:

Gnat = Chicken

Woodtick = Pig

Hummy = Turkey

Pigmy Goat = Ram

Woody

Doc,

My recoil reducer is my shoulder.

Woody

That's assuming that scrony little 35 caliber bullet imping along on crutches doesn't turn sideways to let it's watering little eyes clear up..

Tasmanian Rebel wrote:Kurt it's BEEN an arms race for a number of years. Next time you talk to Kirk, ask him how many mercury recoil suppressors he's put in buttstocks(I don't have one btw). Primary and set triggers are reversed, titanium parts to reduce lock times are just the things off the top of my head are done(again, I have not seen the need for these in my guns). All of these things are trivial however compared to the basics of sight picture, shooting technique, reading conditions, and loading quality accurate ammo. In Raton these guns are weighed and examined carefully( granted externally) so it's hard to see how much these things can be much expanded upon.
Keith Lay

Keith are all of those modifications legal ?

Kurt