Please - Help !

Share your tales (tall or otherwise) of hunting adventures.

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Gary M.
Posts: 53
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2007 12:55 pm
Location: Central Kansas

Please - Help !

Post by Gary M. »

Gentlemen,

On Monday Dec. 7th, I posted the following on the shooter to shooter thread:
"Gentlemen,

I manage a small farm in central Kansas, or the Great American Desert as it were, for my wife and her sister. I have spent an inordinate amount of time and effort in the past 8 years educating myself to optimize the balance between land stewardship, profit, and natural balance. I have sought help from Government and Private advisors and have had to also balance that input. I guess in a nutshell, it ain’t easy! Mother Nature probably was hatched from the same gene pool as that Murphy guy only she can be……., enough said as she may read this forum and we just came out of a 5 year drought!!! Trying to harness the environment may be equated to harnessing lightning, probably aint gonna happen till something smarter than us comes along.

I have also made some pretty good enemies of some in the neighborhood by posting the ground for hunting by “written permission only”. Boy howdy, if my mother only new what trash she brought into the world. The reason for restricting access was not because I wanted it all for myself, but primarily for safety. I have studied terminal ballistics and while not necessarily pretty in animals, it is downright ugly in humans, especially friends. Last year I received 3 incoming rounds, one within about 20 ft. from one group of road hunters, and 6 rounds from a handgun off the road at 600yds, the closest was a wee bit closer than 20ft. Intentional? I guess that’s irrelevant at this point, I can’t even prove it happened. Two days ago, a road hunting party cranked off 12 rounds at a sky lined buck on our property and over the hill at me, (I don’t know how close they came but at least there were no holes in the blind), and I felt unbelievable anger and fear all balled up into what was probably less than 1 minuite. (Don’t tell me how brave you are and what you would have done, bullets really don’t care who you are or how bad you think you are!). I figure that if I decided to shoot back, several bad things might happen and they would probably land at 10 to 1 against ME! Plus some local lawyer would probably extract around $100,000.00 from my retirement fund. (I would make damn sure he didn’t get my Shiloh!!)

The gentlemen that I hunt with are the ones that show up around the place to help when there’s work to be done. They are all hard working professionals, two local firemen, the manager of a local golf course (Who is also a volunteer fireman and EMT) and a local cement contractor. Five bucks and more does off of 640 acres is about max for this neighborhood so between relatives and guests, and the fact that most of us just love to hunt I am pretty well maxed out. I wish I owned enough land so I didn’t have to turn anyone down if they asked, and believe it or not I really do feel bad about it, but that’s the way it is.

“The gentlemen that I hunt with are the ones that show up around the place to help when there’s work to be done.” Do I need to repeat that? Just a hint. Nothing worthwhile is FREE, But I don’t charge them a thing to hunt or fish.

I am aware that this is a big country and I live in just one tiny little part of it, and things are different in different areas. That being said, figure it out for yourself or give up, get the full cable package including the outdoor channel, and become resigned to your fate.

Thank you for letting me ramble on. Just thought I might present a different viewpoint and stimulate some more thought.

Thanks also to Shiloh. You’all are the BEST!
_________________
Gary M."

Well, it has happened once again, I quote this from the Hays, KS Daily News.
EMPORIA, Kan. (AP) -- An Emporia State University freshman died after being shot by someone in a passing vehicle while he was hunting for geese.

The Lyon County Sheriff's Department said Beau Arndt, 18, of Americus, and two friends had placed several dozen goose decoys in a farm field Saturday and were lying in the snow waiting for incoming birds.

Arndt's companions said a pickup truck stopped along a nearby road and fired a rifle shot into the decoys, but hit Arndt instead. The truck left the scene slowly after the shot was fired, Arndt's friends told authorities.

Arndt was pronounced dead at the scene.

The Sheriff's Department is looking for a late 1970s orange and red Ford pickup that is believed to have Shawnee County plates.

Shooting waterfowl with a rifle is illegal in Kansas, and it's also against the law to shoot from inside a vehicle and or onto someone's property without permission.

Though there typically are gunshot accidents each year during hunting season, Arndt is the first person killed in a hunting accident in Kansas since 2005, said Wayne Doyle of the Kansas Department of Wildlife and Parks.

"So far this year I think we've had 11 (nonfatal) accidents reported," Doyle said. "When you consider how much time's spent hunting, that's a very insignificant number, but it's certainly not insignificant to those involved. This is sad. It's tragic."

Word of Arndt's death spread quickly around Americus, a small town near Emporia. Randy Smith, a friend of Arndt's family, said hunters are upset that Arndt was killed by an illegally fired bullet.

"It's being called a hunting accident, but that bullet was fired by a poacher," Smith said. "Hunting had nothing to do with it. There's no way it should have happened."

Doyle said most of the state's hunting fatalities are the result of careless gun handling, though two in the past 15 years involved unsupervised children carrying firearms without permission.

He said the Department of Wildlife frequently gets complaints about poachers who drive back roads and illegally fire at animals from their vehicles.

Smith described Arndt as an avid hunter.

"You couldn't ask for a better kid," he said. "He was big into waterfowl hunting, fishing, deer hunting. Outdoors is where he always wanted to be. He had a really bright future ahead of him."
I suppose it's one thing to listen to an old man harp about road hunters. But Dammit, this kid was one of the people we are counting on to carry on the tradition.

I have had enough. I am in the planning stages of a campaign to deal with the lawbreakers that decide what rules they will obey and whose life they are willing to risk to shoot a damn deer or in this case, a goose!!

We have to address this problem or Parents will no longer support their children engaging in a "dangerous sport". The rules are there for a reason and we have got to deal with them or we WILL LOOSE BIG! Hell some folks can get 200 lashes for "Being Raped". Whereas we probably should, but won't be allowed to give lashes, we can refuse to call these lawbreakers hunters, we can refuse to have anything to do with them, we can kick them out of any hunting organizations, we can approach our lawmakers and local judges to refuse them hunting privleges, we can turn up in court and support the prosecution side, we can look in the mirror and make sure we are not guilty, we can become active and persue a better and safer activity for ourselves and our children.
Maybe this is a local problem, maybe not, but we are all hunters and something needs done. I'm looking for help and ideas. Don't need any war stories, got my own. I need ideas worthy of presenting to an unknowlegable public that only see's a young man shot for no reason, which. by the way, is exactly the way we should feel.

Ideas :idea:

Gary M. :!:
Gary M.
Orville
Posts: 2239
Joined: Mon May 16, 2005 2:54 pm
Location: Buffalo Wy

Post by Orville »

I'm sure I'm going to catch a lot of flak over this but IMO the pope and young, boone and crocket record BS has done more to incrouage poaching and illeagal shooting then any thing else. Listening to hunters talk around here, it's not about the shot or stalk it's about the measurements. When is comes to game birds if you don't get your limit your not considered a good hunter. This encourages the poaching and illeagal shooting as they don't want to be seen as a failure in other hunters eyes.
This fall I had and have a fair number of pheasants on my property north of the RV Park, I was going out and getting one cock pheasant a day, some of my friends couldn't understand why I didn't shoot more and why I wouldn't let them shoot them. I told them I and the wife could only eat one at a time, If I left the rest I would have many days of hunting, if I let them shoot them off in a day or so nobody would have any hunting left.
I saw three antelope wounded this fall by people shooting from the road none were recoved, the shooter made a half hearted attempt to track them but gave up, their attuede was there's more down the road. Many times I have spotted antelope or deer and while planning a stalk or on the stalk some other hunters comes along with his super magmun and start shooting, but the new super magumn he just bought can kill at a mile and a half, the bullet just has to touch it and it's dead.
Charter Member O-G-A-N-T

Shooting grease groove bullets in a sharps is new technology and just a passing fad.
Bad Bill
Posts: 1300
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2006 9:44 pm
Location: SW of NE ND

Post by Bad Bill »

Gary, I'm really sorry to hear this. And, yes, they are not hunters, but criminals. Just makes my blood boil and I can't say more right now. It is such a tragedy - no doubt an unintended consequence of a stupid act.
bryany
Posts: 1253
Joined: Fri May 02, 2003 7:47 am
Location: Casper, Wyoming

Post by bryany »

Gary, try setting a buck deer decoy somewhere on the place that would draw shots. Have a digital camera set up to snap pictures of the morons and then display them in town for the other locals to see.


Bryan
“I wonder if God created man because He was disappointed with the monkey.” Mark Twain
bobw
Posts: 3862
Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2004 12:52 pm

Post by bobw »

About the same thing happened here in SD a few years back. In a winter wheat field that the GFP had leased for a Walk in Area for public hunting of geese, adjacent to a National Widlife Refuge. The Landowner drove by seeing the geese(decoys) in the wheat and shot at them with his 22-250, killing a hunter under one of them. This was land leased by the GFP expressly for the purpose of public hunting. Result one dead hunter and they NEVER did jack to the "goose shooter". I guess the GFP just figured they would alienate all the Landowners in the state if they prosecuted him.It was one of those news'y items that sure got dropped like a hot potatoe real quick. bobw
Gary M.
Posts: 53
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2007 12:55 pm
Location: Central Kansas

Post by Gary M. »

Gentlemen,

Thank you for your replies and for tolerating my ranting, but when I heard the news report on the radio this morning, well I felt the need to deal with excessive blood pressure legally.

Brian, we were all set up to do just that, KDWP that is, but the pre ice and then the ice storm hit. They know they are welcome any time. The reports have been filed and they are all friends.

Orville, I think you may have touched on some of the problem with what is occuring. I must admit, I hold out for the "Big Buck" as bad as the rest. I do not need the meat to feed my family although I do see that it is consumed, as I should. I eat some and find a home for the rest. I also harvest does as a method of herd control. That being said, I would not break the law or endanger a life for even the opportunity to shoot a trophy deer. I have several "trophys" on the wall and all have a wonderful and legal tale to tell. My father, who's only relationship with "High Power Rifles" was WW2, didn't have much use for them. He always told his boys, that they were and would be held responsible for the result of every bullet they fired, until it came to rest.

Bill, far be it for me to say anything in defense of these folks, but they exist everywhere. You can find them driving on the interstate at top speed during an ice storm, or generally doing something most would consider out of the realm of smart, without having the presence of mind to observe any consequence for themselves, much less anyone else. The only way of dealing with them I can think of now, is to serve them up a large dose of public humiliation spelled criminal process, and then take everything they have, sell it and give the procedes to the relatives of the people they hurt, spelled civil process. Accidents happen, but rarely can these be justifiably qualified as an accident, when laws are broken. After all, isn't that what laws are all about. An attempt by representatives of the public, to try and provide some sort of protection and orderly method of conducting daily life, while not infringing beyond necessity on individual freedom. The right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness belongs to all of us, and laws were drawn up to try and insure that we can all reach these lofty goals to the best of our abilities without the pursuit of said goals being cut short by someone else's lack of regard for anothers rights. The problem with all of this, is it can for the most part, only be reactive, which doesn't really help the Beau Arndt's of the world.

Am I being Vindictive? Damn Right.

Education and a change in tradition may be our only hope.

Enjoy the day, it's a gift. :)
Gary M.
ole pizen slinger
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Location: East of yesterday and West of nowhere.

Post by ole pizen slinger »

Gary,
Seems like this sort of thing is common place across the nation. I don't like CNN but watch it every once in a while. The other day a report was aired that there are numerous shootings from cars of live stock. Several different states were mentioned. In my own state of NC I have seen people drive the roads watching the fields for ground hogs and stop and shoot them from inside the vehicle. We have become a nation where 'roagues' run loose and free. And when caught only get a slap on the hand. My sympathy to the boy's family who lost a son. I hope they catch the lowlife and prosecute him to the fullest.
ole pizen slinger
Barry C Jolly

"I envy no man that knows more than myself and pity them that know less:" Sir T. Brown

"Everyone must sacrifice at the altar of stupidity from time to time" A. Einstein
bobw
Posts: 3862
Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2004 12:52 pm

Post by bobw »

Gary M. wrote:
Am I being Vindictive? Damn Right.

Education and a change in tradition may be our only hope.

Enjoy the day, it's a gift. :)



There isn't anybody on this forum who doesn't understand that this occurance is a trajedy. Before you use your emotions to go on a crusade for more restrictions on the gun owning and responsible LAW abiding hunting public let the law find out who is responsible and bring them to justice. Your whole diatribe and demand for action is EXACTLY like what the antigunners use on the rest of us gunowners after every trajedy. All due respect...... bobw
Gary M.
Posts: 53
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2007 12:55 pm
Location: Central Kansas

Post by Gary M. »

bobw,

With all due respect for your opinion Bob, what I am asking for in my "diatribe", is for us to police ourselves, to ostracize those who ignore the law, and at least curb these actions by getting involved and letting the people that engage in illegal actions know it is not acceptable. We all know these folks at the local gunshop or sportsmans gatherings, most of them can't keep their mouth's shut about what they "got away with". As I told a Game Warden this morning, we don't need any new laws, we need a new attitude among legal hunters.

I want to get something done "our way", before the anti's get involved and not allow the wind to fill their sails. That is why I have tried to energize comment from within the ranks.

Vindictive? As I'm sure you carefully read and noted, I have been on the receiving end of 21 rounds of ammunition in the past two years in three seperate incidents, and would like to see such action ceased prior to waiting for the law to bring to justice the good citizens that possibly caused my demise. Kinda takes the fun out of what I look forward to every year. The really scary part is as I said before, with the exception of the first incident, when a member of this forum was in the blind with me, I can't even prove I was shot at!!

Perspective, Bob, that is maybe what we are dealing with in your comments. Mine is no doubt containing a more urgent message than you might prefer, but that might be due to the snap of a supersonic bullet passing over sent on it's way by "one of ours".

Please re-read my words and if you still feel this way, lets discuss it further. That is why I started this post, to get input from all, to stay on the straight and narrow.

I have been fighting the fight since the '68 GCA when I was in Gunsmith School in Denver. Don't want to screw up, just want to accomplish some sort of real change if it's possible or not waste my time and let the status quo determine which one of us gets killed next. Hopefully it will be some old fart like me and not another young fellow who was "accidentially terminated" without having the opportunity to live to a ripe old age, all for the illegal poaching of a goose. Maybe I'm too sensative about this.

Please excuse my emotions and pardon another diatribe. I will await comment from others and will try and act in an effective way. But I will act in a positive way for positive change. Don't crucify me, help me find a way.

Thank you,
Gary M.
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Lazer
Posts: 484
Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2007 5:13 pm
Location: Central Idaho

Post by Lazer »

Gary:

Most wildlife enforcement agencies run "decoy" operations from time to time to address specific problems. You might want to contact the nearest warden supervisor and discuss your problem and offer your property as a possible location for a decoy enforcement operation. Maybe it's the right place, maybe it's not... it has to be a safe place for the operation and a a location for the officers to set up on.

Good luck. Hunting ethics are spiraling around the drain hole.

Lazer 8)
Gary M.
Posts: 53
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2007 12:55 pm
Location: Central Kansas

Post by Gary M. »

Lazer,

Thanks fot the input.

We were all set up to run the decoy the last weekend but the weather turned to iceland!! :)

I have known and worked with most of the Game Wardens in this part of the state, their boss is a hunting pardner of 30 years. They want to help, but their job is near impossible. Most have much more than 1000 square miles to cover, plus backup. Even the local Sheriff only has 4 deputies on duty patrol at any given time and then only if at full staff that day. They just can't be everywhere when needed and the bad guys know it. All they can do is send a message at best, or be lucky, but they are doing what they can. With that in mind, I reinterate that we as hunters must get legally but indirectly involved and be additional eyes and ears for them. Work with them and let the bad guys beware.

Thanks,
Gary M.
bobw
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Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2004 12:52 pm

Post by bobw »

Gary M., I will stand by exactly what I said before and now, as far as cutting you slack goes, I allready have. Let the law catch,charge, and convict the perpetrator before YOU start painting everyone with the same brush. When the law catches who did it, THEN and only THEN will the rest of us know why they did it. How do you know it was a slimeball who wanted to poach a goose? Why would someone poach a goose with a highpowered rifle? Wouldn't be enuf left to eat. You are assuming alot of things. Stop, let the law provide some answers first. There are many injustices in the world and our country today,yesterday, and tommorrow ;calling for action before knowing the facts is lynch mob mentality.. Saddling law abiding citizens with more laws trying to prevent something they wouldn't think of doing anyway is stupid. Its how liberals function and think. You say we need to police our own, again you assume that a sportsman did it. Your right I don't like rants, without facts, yours is totally suspect. Let the law catch the shooter and get the facts FIRST. Then I will listen to your rant and diatribe with more patience. Still I give you some respect for your concern anyway.... bobw
Gary M.
Posts: 53
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2007 12:55 pm
Location: Central Kansas

Post by Gary M. »

bobw,

Somehow I don't feel you are reading what I am writing and have reported, or I am doing a very poor job of communicating my point. Regardless I am receiving a lot of good input from many sources and will tell you that I will not do anything that you would find objectionable.

Thank you, now lets move on.
Gary M.
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Lazer
Posts: 484
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Location: Central Idaho

Post by Lazer »

Gary:

'Sounds all too famililar..... I hope our paths cross some time,

Lazer
ironramrod
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Location: Dakota Territory

Post by ironramrod »

Gary M.,

Lazer is exactly right in that the decoy procedure works well in just about every area where there is a poaching problem and the procedures are done correctly. Additionally, the enforcement people don't have to catch all the bad guys to get the message across. The mocassin telegraph/bar talk will get the message out through the entire community that the gendarmes are watching and it can be very expensive if they cross the line. If 2 or 3 pickups and a bunch of guns are confiscated, the entire complexion of the problem will change in a community. None of these guys really want to lose $20-30K or more worth of vehicle and equipment for a deer or whatever. Stiffer peanalties would likely help too. For instance, a $5-20K or so fine for poaching and no hunting privileges for 10-15 years will really put the kaboosh to a lot of illegal activity in an area. Sure fines of that magnitude are stiff, but does Kansas or North Dakota or wherever want to stop this stuff or don't they? When the current fines for poaching a deer were established what did gas cost per gallon v. what does gas cost now? These are some of the questions state legislatures really need address in order to make illegal hunting/fishing activities less adventureous.

Re: the persons that shot the college kid (probably inadvertently) in the goose decoys, they will be caught and probably convicted of manslaughter at least; maybe more than that. Fleeing the scene can get real ugly for them as well. This is what the law enforcement community excels at; investigating crimes and tracking down the perpertrators. Some agencies are better than others. They don't generally do well at stopping crimes, but the decoy concept comes close.

Regards
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