45-120 and 50-140 ???

[Sagittarius]

I noticed, there is hardly any talk of the big 45-120 and 50-140 cartridges that use the large 3-1/4 case.
Is it because they produce too much recoil, fouling, or are just inaccurate ?
How does their power and velocity compare to the other cartridges ?
Thanks, for any replies.


Paul

[Maj Bob Lee]

I have not shot either of these cartridges so don't have any personal experience but there are a lot of previous posts that indicate that they do indeed produce heavy recoil and perhaps in the case of the "54-140" not very good accuracy. However, at least my reason for not talking about them is that NO Sharps rifle as far as I can determine ever left the factory chambered for these rounds. They were probably developed by Winchester well after the"buffalo era" and several years after the Sharps company closed its doors. Perhaps some Sharps rifles were rechambered or rebarreled for those rounds but they did not talke Buff during the the great hunts and are not an authentic Sharps chambering. Hope this helps.

Maj Bob Lee
NMLRA
NRA
SASS

[MikeT]

Sagittarius,
Since no one else is jumping in, I give you my .01 cent worth. First, Shiloh does not chamber for the 3 1/4" cartridges, they came along after 1881, When Sharps went out of business. Except for the 30-40 and the 38-55, Shiloh only chambers "Sharps" cartridges. If you want velocity & power, shoot the 45-110, that is all the gun needed by the Buff hunters. Are you intending to shoot 1000 yard matches?
Keep on hav'n fun!
MikeT
P.S. yes to your question/ observations as I have yet to see someone shoot a 45/120 accuractely.

[Maj Bob Lee]

Guess I should say that to my mind that since the company didn't offer it they are not an authentic Sharps chambering as there are original rifles out there that have been rechambered or rebarreled in the mid to late 1880's or later to these cartridges.

Maj Bob Lee
NMLRA
NRA
SASS

[RichBratlee]

After reading comments here and thru some of the older books on the buffalo era I think I have figured out why all the confusion---Some of the old hunters refer to the 45-120---and from what I have accumulated it seems to me they were loading the 45 2&7/8 with upto 120 gr of powder----hence the "45-120" designator when the "proper" Sharp's designation was 45 2&7/8---alos the mix up with the 45-90 WCF and 45-90 Sharps--the Sharps was actually the 45 2 & 4/10---just my thoughts and if iam totally off base please--someone--throw the ball and put me out!!!--or at least tell me

[Sean Thornton]

Shiloh does chamber for the .45-120 cartridge. I have owned and shot a Shiloh Number 3 that had the long throat. It shot jacketed bullets very well and would not shoot lead bullets worth a darn. Too much fouling would build up in the throat making chambering difficult. The recoil was getting up into the relm of discomfort. I now shot a .45-110 Hartford Shiloh as well as a .45-70 Hartford Shiloh. The .45-120 became a .40-65 and now is a .38-56.

[Stan Koslow]

To the Major and Sean Thorton and others interested;
The 45-120-550 did in fact did live and had a reputation among those who owned it. About 2000 were produced and the stamp fell upon the reciever of this gun as "Old Reliable". Frank Mayer one of the few 'runners' who WAS THERE and life was chronicled states, that he purchased one in 1875 a 45-120-550 for the price of 267.60 dollars. They were getting 3.00 dollars per hide then. He mounted it with a scope as was his 45-90-420. He further states" I was never sorry for a minute that I bought it, because this rifle, "OLD RELIABLE" Sharps which was quickly dubbed the "Sharps Buffalo," became questionably the best, the deadliest rifle ever made in America......"if my life depended on one shot from one rifle and I could have my choice, I'd rather have my "Sharps Buff" in my hands than any other gun. Does that convince you."
Mr. Mayer and his reputation as a 'runner' and business man on the plains still remains today. His first serious rifle for the task was a 45-90- 420 bought from Colonel Richard Irving Dodge in about 1872 for 125.00 dollars. It was toped with a A. Vollmer (German) 20 power scope. With two additional hairs supplemented to seperate 30 inches at 200 yards. He found this combination to be lethal and argues that he never needed anything more to do the job.
It is also interesting that he spent 50 per cent more for English powder at the time because the preasures were higher and "burnt decidely moisture". He was speaking of Curtis Harvey and Pigou, Laurence & Williams.
Get rid of the buy American concept. These guys wanted the best price but the best quality and they did not seem to care where it came from. Theres "period thinking for you". That surley would supress some of the common arguments bantered around now, won't it?
He speaks clearly that during this hey day the shooters for the most part were divided between Sharps men and Remington men. He went for the straight case as there was less trouble after frequent loadings. He also shot patched pills. He states because of the lack of paper on the plains they used antelope skin shaved thin for thier patching.
There is also talk and controversey to the 45-125-550. My reading and understanding to this is that it is the same cardridge as the 120 but thinner case thus allowing more volume. He does not speak of the 2.6 and 2.7/8 in his writings.
He speaks to the issue of the 40 caliber as being to light on Buff but was fine for target, deer and antelope size game. One interesting note is that Mayer seemed to disdain the word "Buffalo Hunter" as it was a name used by tenderfoots and greenhorns. The name they reffered to and among others was a "runner". They run all over the plains to find the Buff. An interesting note and man. We are lucky that someone (Charles B. Roth) during the modern time took the time to capture his story before it was lost. Thats my four bits.

[Stan Koslow]

A correction; The first rifle purchased from Dodge was a 40-90 ( not 45-90) and the 40-70 was the caliber he felt to light for buff. The bottle necks are the ones he turned his nose up on. He also notes that he changed from the 320 grain pill to the 420 where he was satisfied on the results. I have also read in other journals that at the time the 45 2.1 were given out by the calvary to runners, the 40 caliber cartridges were the most sold by the shop keepers and proof was given by the records during the early years.
Hope that clarifies that. A good example why history many times gets bended or revised. Again Sorry.

[Hidehunter]

Stan - To put it gently there is some question about the historical accuracy of "The Buffalo Harvest." To be sure it's an interesting, well-told story. But Frank Mayer's account brings up numerous technical inconsistancies such as the .45-120 loading, the use of antelope skin for patched bullets, among others.

Maybe Col. Mayers, being an old man, tells the truth but mixed up a few minor details. I'm less that half his age and already get all sorts of facts and figures mixed up! Or maybe he just spun us a good yarn. Some seek to prove Frank Mayers as an outright liar. Others defend his honor as they would defend their own grandfather. We're still talking about him and that alone should do ol' Col. Mayers proud.

One thing that troubles me about "The Buffalo Harvest" concerns Charles B. Roth, the man who published the story. Roth also wrote the biography of a man named "Frank Hopkins." As the story goes he as a legendary horseman who won races all over the world. Everything from short sprints to 3000 mile endurance races across the Arabian desert. Hopkins knew everybody from Buffalo Bill to Teddy Roosevelt to the crowned head of Europe. The trouble is this story has been debunked. See: http://uwadmnweb.uwyo.edu/News/2003/may/uwnews13.htm

[Stan Koslow]

Hidehunter,
I can't agree with you more. The credibility of the paper and author always is relevant. I have personaly rested upon these facts as being rather sound. That is not to say there may be embelishment or inadvertance. When you look at other journals for example such as business records, county tax records ect. and then use dates , places ect, it helps tie the credibility or impeach it. I think many times it is dangerous to make absolute statements. Many times its in between.
With issue to patching, I can tell you first hand that indeed animal skin can be and was used in past days. Buck skin was used. I learned this from past recounting and it goes back to the flinter. What is absolute is the people of the period had to do with what they had and what was around them. There is little argument here. I have one 5x stick flint gun that can shoot greased rabbit skin with peak performance. Cloth was spun in the NE and when you were on the otherside of the Smokey's and run out, what are you going to do? Cloth does not do well in humid climates. Mayer makes statements in being familiar with the ML weapons. Would not it stand to reason that a person would extend thier knowledge from one disipline of shooting to another? Don't discount animal hide, they don't burn through. 'Highly' refined bear grease is one heck of a lube, ranks just underneath whale oil and I still have both. That was the period 'Teflon'. I have never wraped a pill, only balls, but this is a great chance for experiment.
It is facts like these that lead my opinion to favor credibility. Because a man (Roth) may produce fiction as a main stay, if he is given the chance and opportunity to write a piece of non-fiction, is he now not credible? I think that is the question that will always linger and still does today with modern writers. For what it's worth.

[Maj Bob Lee]

Gentlemen,
We are getting way off target here! The question is if Frank Mayer shot a 45-120-50 in the 1870's. He could Have! I bought his book the Buffalo Harvest about 25 years ago and have read copies of articles he wrote in the American Rifleman in the 1930's. The problem is our modern interpretation of the cartridges/loads of the 19th century. Today we think of a "45-120" as being a cartridge with a 3 1/4 inch case. This simply DID NOT EXIST when Frank Mayer was on the buffalo plains!!!. What Col. Mayer probably shot was what we today call the 45-110. IN FACT it was loaded with anywhere from 95 to 120 grains of powder and bullets of 500 to 550 grains weight. What we call the 45-90, meaning the 45 caliber case with a length of 2.4 inches was in fact usually loaded with 100 grains of blackpowder what we today would call the 45-100 with the 45 2.6 inch case. I have a Shiloh Sharps in what we call 45-110. I HAVE loaded 120 grains of Elephant and a 560 grain bullet in it. So I beat Col Mayer and should be able to kill Buff at least 100 yards farther with my 45-120-560. Which is in fact a 45 - 2 7/8 inch case. The original question was about modern "45-120 and 50-140" chamberings. These are for the 3 1/4 inch cases. THEY DID NOT EXIST when Frank Mayer was on the Buffalo Plains! I am prepared to believe Col. Mayer shot a Sharps 45-120-550, but it WAS a 2 7/8 inch case!


Maj Bob Lee
NRA
NMLRA
SASS

[Kenny Wasserburger]

I like to do a bit of research, Enjoy.

Frank Mayer and the 45-120-550

As perhaps many of you know over the years, there has been a good bit of speculation on the 45-120 Sharps. UMC or Better known as Union Metallic Cartridge Co shows in their records that the 45-3 ¼ inch case was not made until 1884. Hence the argument over Sharps having originally chambered rifles with 3 ¼ chambers. It is also well known that in 1881 Sharps Closed its doors for good. Make no mistake; there are a good many examples of original Sharps rifles with 3 ¼ chambers now in existence. Gun or rifle cranks are much the same now as they were back then, I suspect.

In the book wrote about Mayer, called The Buffalo Harvest, Charles Roth is the author. He relates what Mayer told him when he first met him in 1932. Frank Mayer died in 1954 22 years later at the age of 104. This makes Mayer 82 years old when Roth met him and set down the account of Mayer’s buffalo hunting career. Many have chose to discredit Mayer’s personal accounts of his 45-120-550 Sharps, citing that he was an old man and misremember certain important facts. Mayer by all accounts was a Real rifle crank of the era, I doubt he was the total senile man that Frank Sellers sort of leads one to believe in his book on the Sharps Rifles.

Sellers book, is still the best written and researched book on the subject of Sharps rifles. However, I am beginning to think that Sellers and Mayer were both right! I have since, I was in Big Timber been doing some research on this subject with what books I have. And have come upon some interesting information. On the back jacket of Roth’s book he makes statements to Mayer using the 3 ¼ inch case Sharps rounds for buffalo hunting. These statements are Roth’s and his alone. While in Mayer’s personal narrative he never mentions a 3 ¼ case length, I am beginning to think that Roth made some incorrect assumptions. Roth in doing so has actually been the cause to the doubt cast on Mayer’s accounts and recollections, all these years. Mayer makes mention of his favorite rifle being the 45-120-550 sharps many times in the book. Roth was perhaps not a student of the rifle but a admirer of Mayer and the only 45-120 that he knew of most likely was the common 45-120 3 ¼ case that Winchester loaded. Mayer also gave an account of using not one but 2 40-90-420 Sharps rifles and makes mention that he had bought a second one along with a 40-70 for smaller game hunting. He makes clear mention that the second rifle is a bottleneck cartridge. Roth states that Mayer’s 40-90 was 3 ¼ case length and Again I think this is due to Roth’s lack of Knowledge on Sharps Cartridges not a incorrect accounting from Mayer.

Now the Plot thickens, Sharps company records never show a 3 ¼ inch chambering offered. And Sellers is very vocal about this and thus his reason to discount Mayer’s statments. However, a Smithsonian Expedition for buffalo tells of, a 45-120 sharps used by James McNaney of Miles City Mt. McNaney’s standing was of one of the best buffalo hunters of the area in that last season of buffalo hunting 1882-83. A Mr. William T Hornady an official of the National Museum gives a account of McNaney’s Gear used on this hunt. This pretty much tells me that even though a 3 ¼ inch case was not available till 1884 that does not mean there was not a 45-120 sharps used on buffalo. More evidence surfaces to support the 45-120-550 in Seller’s book. Page 281 gives a partial account right out of a Sharps Catalog circa 1879. And I Quote:

“in our Sporting 45 Caliber Rifles, chambered for the 2-7/8th Shell, holding 100 to 120 grs of powder (capacity of shell be largely dependent upon grade of powder used, and the care exercised in slowly filling it.)” It would appear that Sellers missed this important bit of information when discounting Mayer’s narrative.

Here is more information that would give credence to Mayer’s 45-120-550 claim. On Page 280 of Sellers book he shows a 1878 Borchardt Sharps one of 13 made for Frank Hyde. Hyde was a well known Creedmoor Shooter and agent of the Sharps Rifle Company. The Records Show that Hyde special ordered these rifles to be Chambered with a 45 caliber 2-7/8th case for a attempt at better Long Range Performance in Creedmoor matches. Also listed is the fact that UMC loaded the Ammo especially for these rifles with a 125-gr. charge of Powder and a special 650-gr. paper patched bullet! If UMC could get 125 gr of powder in these balloon head cases and a 650-gr. bullet then I would think that it would be no sweat to get 120 gr. of powder and a 550 gr. bullet into the same case. Why Sellers misses these important bits of information shows me that while he is a great researcher he is not a shooter. I have personally been able to get over 120 grs of Fg Elephant BP into a 45-110 solid head case, with a bit of compression and a PP bullet of 550 or 500 grs would be easy to load.

So to me it looks like Frank Mayer did indeed use a 45-120-550 sharps on the buffalo he hunted. But I think it’s a very good bet that Mayer used a 45 2-7/8th Sharps Cartridge. Mayer being just what he said he was, a rifle crank, would of used what at the time was considered the biggest and badest Sharps cartridge around. So perhaps Frank Mayer can rest easier, Looks like he and Frank Sellers were both Right.

Kenny Wasserburger
Knight Commander FES
Wyoming Territory Sharps Shooter

[Hidehunter]

As you can probably tell I'm not to anxious to side one way or the other regarding the accuracy of Frank Mayer's "The Buffal Harvest." I enjoyed it for what it was - well written and interesting. There are many other good books by those who had "been there and done that."

I've heard of using leather for patching bullets. But a muzzleloader which shoots round balls is very different from a cartridge rifle. The bearing surface of a sphere inside a cylinder is just a small ring. Considering this, and the rather loose dimentional tolerances involved with ML balls, leather would work as a patch.

Now think of bullet as used with a cartridge rifle. For the most part it is a cylinder inside a cylinder with a much larger bearing surface. There is only a few thousands of an inch clearance - the depth of the rifle grooves. Unless the leather is the thickness of paper, and consistant in its thickness, I can't see how such a round could be chambered. Much less fired successfully. I could see how a .40 cal. bullet could be patched with buckskin and fired out of a .45 or .50 caliber barrel in an emergency situation. But I doubt that the results would be worth the powder and the effort. Especially for someone who is earning their living with their rifle.

Some time ago this argument came up and someone loaded up a few cartridges using bullets patched with intestines. The idea was that maybe Frank Mayer used antelope intestines instead of skin. (The book specifically mentions "antelope buckskin.") The cartridges thus loaded were said to shoot with good accuracy. I would like to hear about someone who actually made and used bullets patched with antelope skin before I "buy" this story. (NO, I don't care to try it with MY Sharps...)

BTW - I hope you take all this the right way - just a discussion between enthuasists. Not trying to start a flame war..

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Here is the second part of my researched ariticle.

More on Frank Mayer and the 45-120-550 Sharps

Thanks go to Tommy4toes for the articles he sent me. The one is just more recounting of buffalo hunting not much on ammo. The second article wrote by Mayer, in the Dec 1934 issue of the American Rifleman is called making the big bores shoot. I first misunderstood the context of the article, Mayer does not mention at all the English powder he was so fond of when he was hunting buffalo, and he made mention of in the book. I found this very confusing. I then realized that Mayer, Was telling the shooter of 1934, how to make these rifles shoot with materials available at that time. Mayer tells of new brass that required rechambering of the rifles, and said the thin shells that Sharps sold and as he understood where made by them were no longer available. This of course is not correct but Mayer, is just recounting what he understood, Sharps did offer brass and loaded ammo but the UMC Company made these for them. Here again perhaps is were some of the later day scholars were getting the ammo to tear apart Mayer’s acounts. Mayer goes on to talk about solid head shells and about everlasting cases. He makes specific mention of Ideal’s John H. Barlow who furnished Mayer with everlasting type of brass for his rifles. Mayer also makes specific mention of RECHAMBERING rifles for the thicker and heavier brass. He also goes on to mention that these are not entirely to his liking. Mayer also makes mention of American Dead Shot BP as the best powder to use and he goes into detail of using Duplex loading with FFG or FFFG and that FFFg was preferred. Mayer is talking about loading a old buffalo rifle with 1934 available components. Mayer makes no specific mention of 3-1/4 cases in the text of the article but a small graph gives data on these 3-1/4 cases and that 45 3-1/4 were of special order this perhaps only clouds the issue more.

Mayer also give a good bit of information on paper patching and what was required for patch thickness. And his reasons for them. He gives some real good information on this, a proper template is shown and method of patching bullets. Mayer also makes mention of SCALE WEIGHING POWDER not volume weighing but using a scale to weigh charges. It would appear that American Dead Shoot Powder of Fg reacted favorably to Duplexing with FFFg and perhaps was not the quality as his often spoke of English powder he used in his buffalo hunting days. All of this is quite interesting it would appear that powder quality issues were much the same then as today, even when Mayer was hunting he searched for best quality powder for his needs.

Lastly, Mayer talks about the accuracy of PP vrs. Grease Grove bullets he feeling is that PP bullets were more accurate then any GG bullet and had fired 1000’s of PP bullets and knew this as such. While I don’t fully agree with Frank Mayer on this aspect of BPCR shooting I really enjoyed reading his accounts and his methods of loading these old rifles. While Mayer makes specific mention of weighing charges, I don’t know if he did this while buffalo running or not? The article is for 1934 rifle cranks to go out and load these neat old rifles, not really a accounting of what he used on the buffalo plains. It does give some insights into Mayer’s thinking and that of course is very interesting.

I hope everyone has enjoyed this bit of scholarly research as much as I did doing it.

Kenny Wasserburger
Knight Commander FES
Wyoming Territory Sharps Shooter

[Hidehunter]

Stan - You asked "Because a man (Roth) may produce fiction as a main stay, if he is given the chance and opportunity to write a piece of non-fiction, is he now not credible?"

That's a good and valid point. I haven't read Roth's story about Frank Hopkins. But I understand it, like "The Buffalo Harvest," was presented as a true autobiography and not fiction.

Of course Roth has to work with the story he was given. If Frank Hopkins told a 'tall tale' about events long passed (which may be the case) Roth can't be held accountable. After all we are talking about Western adventure stories and not scholorly research material!

As history / hunting / BPCR enthuasists we can argue a few fine points about cartridges and loadings as told in "The Buffalo Harvest." But nobody has been able to definitely prove or disprove any of it.