The end of an Era?

[Steve Rhoades]

Deuce,
I have never faulted Conner's administrative talents. just that he treats the competitors like red headed step children.
Wouldn't it be nice if just one time he and the silhouette dept. would ask what they could do for you rather than what you should to do for them?
You need to start realizing they need us more than we need them.

[Old-Win]

Deuce,
You're absolutely correct about it not being an easy job putting on the Nationals at a local club. It would have to be a commitment by the club and the membership being volunteers to run the match. The club would deserve the money and not the NRA. Cliff and Gregg put on a fine match but they are also shooters that would want to participate and that is very difficult to do. However, I shot my first LR match there in 2005 and there were 66 shooters there. I was told that in the year before, that the numbers were in the 70's. I still have the score sheet and look at the names of shooters that were there. Some were or became national champs but they don't appear anymore. Not anywhere. Numbers have dwindled to the mid 30's. The last World Match was held at Lodi and we shot both mid and long range. Cliff and Gregg put on a mid and long range match in June but I don't know what the numbers are like. We just have to accept the inevitable and try to keep the sport going. To say that the Lodi facilities can't handle the match is just not the case. No range is perfect. I've not shot the nationals but have shot Rhodes match a couple of times and enjoyed it but eating the red dust or taking on the 100 degree heat weren't exactly great conditions either. I watch the nationals report every year and see the complaints about the rain showers and the winds in Raton. I think what it really comes down to is that the western shooters would like to keep it the west and for the rest of the country, it's a damned long drive. Bob Saathoff

[desert deuce]

Hope you mean Cliff and Mark at Lodi, rather than Cliff and Gregg. I shot with them in 2012 at Lodi.

Did you check the 2014 Raton Scores for them? Yep, not only did they drive from Wisconsin they shot really well when they got to Raton. Gun trouble did arise or they would have done even better.

I shot next to a man last year from Maryland that drove out and in a previous year a shooter from Delaware that also drove out. Mike Milholland comes down from Alaska as does Mike Gephart. Ray Hanson wanders down from Minnesota. Al Kunkle from Kentucky. There were a couple of shooters from Tennessee, etc. etc. etc....Yep, all these guys from the west want to....wait a minute, none of these are from the west. How can that be..

S. Rhoades to the Western Toweliban wrote:

You need to start realizing they need us more than we need them.

Steve, guess we just look at things differently, my view is that we don't need them if they either don't know how to put on a good match or refuse to do so for shooters that love the sport. NRA doesn't need to be paying people to run off serious competitive shooters.

[Don McDowell]

It's not about the drive. The 5 guys from Idaho, probably drive further than the 2 guys from Wisconsin. The 2 guys from Alaska come a bit further than the 2 from Maryland. I think I'm the closest Wyoming shooter (6), it's an 8 hr drive, (oh and speaking of toll roads,,, I got the 45 $ bill in the mail from E470) the further ones will come another 5 hours longer. 8 shooters from Colorado would be the closest and outside of the one or two that live in Trinidad, it's not a hop in the car and run down to see what's going on type of thing.
It's about the participation in a National event. The facilities in place, there's no other place that truly has the shooter support facilities that the Whittington does. Just those of us camped in the east campground would fill the 12 allotted spots at Lodi. That's not counting the number of shooters in competitor housing..
66 shooters in 05 when the bptr was still mingled with the sillouettes? Last year there were 50 shooters, this year there were 40, and I know of at least 3 that said they hadn't sent their entries in when the shxt hit the fan in July, and didn't trust Willings word to go ahead and have the match, so they entered events at other places. 1 that was going to come shoot the bptr matches when the nonsense fired up, decided it wasn't worth postponing his annual elk hunt with his son to take a chance on the match not happening. So there's 4 that Willing hisself ran off. 1 more was going to come but couldn't arrange a known to him spotter. 1 more had given NRA HQ a verbal commitment to come, he was squadded , but a last minute check on the finances came up a bit short. But even at that if you consider the number of shooters that made the trip that's not a bad number to show up considering the price of fuel and lodging, and the mass confusion Willing brought on by threatening to kill a match 30 days before the entries closed , due to lack of entry.. .


I don't know fella's the ball is in our court. We can fall into the trap of everybody taking their ball and going home, and then they can cancel the bptr matches for good. Or we can stand up and show them that yes by god, you can make a mess of the matches, but we're going to come and shoot. We will do everything we can to get things on track, but you're not going to bogus excuse us out of a match. You might not like Connor, but we all know you only have to see him when you check in, and when they hand out awards, other than that he's pretty danged avoidable.. Same goes for those that may have personality conflicts with this shooter or that,, there's enough folks around that unless due to some freak event you get squadded with that or those persons, you won't even get close enough to smell them. So let's put some of this bs aside, it's time to think about the future.
IF they keep their word and hold the 15 match , every man jack one of you that aspire to be a midrange and long range shooter owe it to yourselves, and generations to come to enter and show up at Raton. Then at least they can't worm out of holding a match somewhere in 16 and beyond "because there just aren't enough interested".
If they do move the match to somewhere east of the Mississippi, then it's absolutely incumbent upon those of you that complain the Whittington is to far of a drive to attend that match and prove you're truly interested in preserving the match that started the NRA. I will make an honest effort to attend that match, but again in July is iffy, before the 15th of July isn't even something I can really consider.

[desert deuce]

Ohh no, ooh no, two days in a row I gotta agree with Don.

He is dead right.... best way is show up and shoot. Fog 'em with competitors, eat beans three meals a day and sit close in the competitors meeting.

[Don McDowell]

Beanie weanies, and bbq Vienna sausage, you can get enough to get you thru the week for 10$ at the Family Dollar.

Sheesh shoot next to a guy for 12 days over two years, and look what happened to me.

[Old-Win]

Well I'm embarrassed! I've done that before and called Mark and Cliff, Cliff and Gregg. Must be something about two first names.
Yes, the Nationals are not just about western shooters as there are Midwesterners as well as Easterners that go. Bob Walline is another Lodi shooter that goes and does well and brings some friends along. Raymond travels all over taking in many of the matches as well as the Canadian Nationals. He also goes to the S.E with his muzzle loader. That guy likes to shoot.
The point is, if there's not going to be anymore BPTR Nationals at Raton, don't write off any other clubs until you really know what they have to offer. At the fall match, Mark made a comment about being asked to host the matches, we'll just have to see how it plays out. When they started the Regional matches, they hoped to bring in some western blood. Deuce, I think you're the only one that ever came. Bob

[Kurt]

Lodi is not far from the center of this Country.
Good roads lead to Lodi as well as air traffic is close by. Lodging is close by as well as camping if you are one to drag along your Gypsy wagon. There is also a privet camp ground very close by also. I don't know what they have for Motels in Lodi but I know several that shoot there stay in town. Madison is just down the road plus several Motels between the range and Madison.
I'm not sure just how many spots with eclectic they have at Lodi but there is a lot more room for setting up dry camp sites. There are no trees to plug your camper in at the Quigley either and 600 or more participators don't have a problem staying there either.

Kurt

[Don McDowell]

Keep in mind to shoot the entire national match you are shooting for 6 days, that's actual match shooting you start at 7 am and get done in the late afternoon. The rifle check in and practice days. So you figure on 2 or 3 extra days, that's 9 days in a motel that's 900 just for a bed. That's doesn't include 3 meals...and it doesn't include added fuel cost driving back and forth from the motel to the room..
Lodi says they have 12 electric spots, but nothing with sewer and water. I can't get 6 days out of the water tank in my camper.
While it's true the Quigley gets 600 shooters not very many of them show up before Thursday, and are gone by Sunday afternoon.. Really no comparison.
The Whittington campground has water ,sewer and electric, along with shower and laundry. Don't forget the competitor housing at the WC. The Shotgun Center is open for evening meals, and they cater a breakfast wagon in the morning.
The quality of the range has little to do with holding the nationals here or there, but the support services to the shooters.
Until you actually attend the national match it's really hard to see just what a grand place the Whittington Center is, and then you see why it's booked solid for most of the year.
I'm not buying the added attendance at someplace else. The numbers reported just don't justify the claim. You guys that say you'ld go to the nationals here or there, really need to start showing up for the regional/whatever match at those ranges... 29 shooters at the Lodi's August match, is 11 short of the numbers at Raton.

[Woody]

I don't mind making the trip to Raton for the Nationals. I've been doing it since 99. What I learned this year, is that I can't afford two trips. I still plan on attending the Silhouette Nationals in 15, but. Well you know.

Woody

[Don McDowell]

Good point Woody, we all make our choices of where we can go to shoot, it would be grand to go everywhere, but there's the checking account balance always rearing it's head...
Maybe it would be a good thing to consolidate the two matches again, not in July , but with the number of sillouette shooters dropping from 500 to less than a hundred, and considering the relatively small numbers that shot bptr even then. I don't think it would improve numbers of either match..
One reason that befuddles me to no end Shoot x is to far, but I like to go to Shoot Y.. MapQuest says they're the same mileage...

[beltfed]

Lodi?
FWIW,
28 target range filled to say 4 relays will allow for over 100 shooters. Lodi has held the 1 week long Midwest Palma, Long Range and F class matches for years.
They also ran the National F- Class championships which also lasted for many days. Even the NRA President attended that one. Grand and
glorious week it was.
No problem with camping at range or at several nearby campgrounds.
and many of the motels within 10-15 miles are in $70 range, Not $100/nite.

Only thing about Lodi, is that the range faces West. So, matches are generally shot "upside down" both for Hi Po and
for BPTR because mid-late afternoon the sun is getting somewhat in your face and the sun is, of course behind the target faces . We start at the 1K and move down.

Oh, Interestingly, at one time back in the '80s or early '90s there was talk about moving the National Matches from
Camp Perry to Camp Atterbury. There was a point where the Ohio Natl Guard was not certain about allowing continued use of Perry for
the Nat'l Matches. Atterbury is at or near Edinbourgh, Indiana. Similarly to Camp Perry, Atterbury was abandoned by the US Gov
and is now a base of the Indiana Nat'l Guard.
But I do not know what exactly the facilities are at Atterbury. Maybe someone can tell us more about it.
Who knows- Maybe Atterbury could be made available for BPTR Nationals. NRA or Not.
beltfed/arnie

[beltfed]

Lodi?
FWIW,
28 target range filled to say 4 relays will allow for over 100 shooters. Lodi has held the 1 week long Midwest Palma, Long Range and F class matches for years.
They also ran the National F- Class championships which also lasted for many days. Even the NRA President attended that one. Grand and
glorious week it was.
No problem with camping at range or at several nearby campgrounds.
and many of the motels within 10-15 miles are in $70 range, Not $100/nite.

Only thing about Lodi, is that the range faces West. So, matches are generally shot "upside down" both for Hi Po and
for BPTR because mid-late afternoon the sun is getting somewhat in your face and the sun is, of course behind the target faces . We start at the 1K and move down.

Oh, Interestingly, at one time back in the '80s or early '90s there was talk about moving the National Matches from
Camp Perry to Camp Atterbury. There was a point where the Ohio Natl Guard was not certain about allowing continued use of Perry for
the Nat'l Matches. Atterbury is at or near Edinbourgh, Indiana. Similarly to Camp Perry, Atterbury was abandoned by the US Gov
and is now a base of the Indiana Nat'l Guard.
But I do not know what exactly the facilities are at Atterbury. Maybe someone can tell us more about it.
Who knows- Maybe Atterbury could be made available for BPTR Nationals. NRA or Not.
beltfed/arnie

[beltfed]

Lodi?
FWIW,
28 target range filled to say 4 relays will allow for over 100 shooters. Lodi has held the 1 week long Midwest Palma, Long Range and F class matches for years.
They also ran the National F- Class championships which also lasted for many days. Even the NRA President attended that one. Grand and
glorious week it was.
No problem with camping at range or at several nearby campgrounds.
and many of the motels within 10-15 miles are in $70 range, Not $100/nite.

Only thing about Lodi, is that the range faces West. So, matches are generally shot "upside down" both for Hi Po and
for BPTR because mid-late afternoon the sun is getting somewhat in your face and the sun is, of course behind the target faces . We start at the 1K and move down.

Oh, Interestingly, at one time back in the '80s or early '90s there was talk about moving the National Matches from
Camp Perry to Camp Atterbury. There was a point where the Ohio Natl Guard was not certain about allowing continued use of Perry for
the Nat'l Matches. Atterbury is at or near Edinbourgh, Indiana. Similarly to Camp Perry, Atterbury was abandoned by the US Gov
and is now a base of the Indiana Nat'l Guard.
But I do not know what exactly the facilities are at Atterbury. Maybe someone can tell us more about it.
Who knows- Maybe Atterbury could be made available for BPTR Nationals. NRA or Not.
beltfed/arnie

[Tasmanian Rebel]

It's become painfully obvious over the last few years competitive shooting has become a red headed stepchild for the NRA. It's not just BP shooters but most all of the other shooting sports are getting the same treatment and competitor numbers are declining. I know in our sport the NRA made a decision in 2009 to de-fund the U.S. Creedmoor team. A number of us made the team in the tryout only for the NRA to turn around immediately and say "sorry, we'll give a discount on the 2010 entry fee". Frank Monikowski flew from Rhode Island just to shoot in the tryout, made the team, and the NRA pulled the plug.
I think for the NRA the constant fear mongering for the threat against the Second Amendment has been such a cash cow for them the bean counters in the NRA are de-emphsising competitive shooting. I feel it is important to remain a NRA member but will remain only as a "generic" member as long as they keep trying to cut our collective competitive throats.
Keith Lay