powder compression and drop tubes.

[fingers]

I've been reading JS Wolf's book Loading Cartridges for the Original .45-70 Springfield Rifle. He suggests that drop tubeing is only necessary if you can't fit the powder you want into the case. I think we all probably drop tube but has anyone tested whether it makes any differance in accuracy if you don't drop tube? He states that he is compressing his loads .60. With drop tubeing I'm compressing around .2 to .3 with a couple extra grains of powder. The ole boy did extensive testing I would think he tried it himself.

He also said that it is necessary to crimp to get full powder burn. I know some don't have any neck tension at all and just finger seat the bullets.

I guess I've some more playing to do when I finally get my load worked out.

Jezz it would speed up thing if I didn't have to drop tube.

I've got to go and reload some now. Take care all and good shooting.

[MikeT]

fingers,
I have used a 31 inch drop tube when I need all the powder I can get into a case. I have also used a 13 inch drop tube [mostly for Swiss] and I do not see a difference. I am guessing that because I do not compress the Swiss I can get away without much of a drop tube.
Keep on hav'n fun!

[Bonanza Driver]

Fingers:

I use Goex 1f in my 45-110 load and do not drop tube. I, too compress .60 in order to seat a Lyman Postell. Initially, I was concerned about using this much compression but this load yields accuracy of 1 moa, so what the heck. I spoke with rdnck on this subject and his advice was “If you are achieving 1moa – don’t change a thing!” I consider this good advice from a credible source.

I have experimented with a 24” drop tube but so far, have not found any advantage to doing so with this large-grain ‘canon’ powder. As time permits, I intend to keep experimenting with drop tubes; not so much from the accuracy standpoint but because the powder charging process would be quicker if the powder column did not come all the way up to the case mouth!

All the Best,
Steve

[Jim Watson]

Yesterday a friend set up a 22" drop tube because a bad shoulder made feeding his old 36" awkward. He said that the shorter tube settled less and left about .050" more compression with Swiss 1 1/2.

[JAGG]

I still use a 36 inch drop tube ! Don't care if others say shorter ones work just as well ! The longer the drop the more tightly the grains compact ! Maybe try 2- 36 inch tubes together this summer ! What the heck ! I don't think Wolfe ever found out how long Springfield armory's drop tubes were ! JAGG

[fingers]

I tried my favorite load without drop tubeing. It was the best group I've shot yet. Still want to test some more. 1.2" at 100yrds. Less than an inch if you go by that order of merit system. I've only been shooting this fall and still playing with loads and such, but if no drop tube give me just as good of groups with a 10rnd string as it did with this 5rd. I'm throwing my tube away!

I noticed that when useing the compression die the non-dropped loads took less force to squeze them down to bullet seating height. When fired there seemed to be more smoke and more flash. I wonder if I would get the same reaction with less powder and drop and compress? There is always something to play with.

AL...what sucks about NEI dies? The are almost half the cost of P. Jones so that is quite a bit of differance to a poor man.

Thanks for the help fellas

[IronSight]

fingers,
Now, you've got me going! I've been drop tubing since day 0 because everyone including the books say to do it. Never tried without because the rationale seemed to make sense. It just might be with enough compression, drop tubes might not make much difference. I needed to find a new experiment this Spring and this is just as good as any.

[fingers]

Ya no kidding. Still playing with everything being a newbie and all. But all things being equal. The load with out drop tubeing shot better than any I've shot so far.

The real test. I just wanted to see what would happen so I only loaded six this way. I've been shooting 3" and even down to 2.5" but since going to a different bullet I started walking down in powder and ended up with a 72grn load in my 45-70. Good groups. Around 2" for a two round group. This being measured in max spread at 100yrds. I read "the book" and JS Wolf said that drop tubeing doesn't matter, the compression numbers will change but whether you drop or not doesn't matter. I read a book earlier about Cris Sharps and some of their loading directions and they didn't mention drop tubeing and they fingered the bullets home. Mr Wolf did extensive testing. His theory was that as long as you didn't compress the crap out of your load you only broke the rough edges off the powder and it really didn't matter much. Drop tube compresses, comression die compresses more. It might be that with all that you/we are compressing too much. Too much meaning poor ignition. Who knows...black powder = black magic. Play and try and rattle on to whom ever will listen about what happened, and enjoy your own type of voodoo.

This was only my first test. If I shoot consistant groups in 10rnd strings then my tube is going in the trash. One less step and how can anyone consistanly drop at the same speed load after load? My 4rnds with this load was 1.4" at 100yrds max deviation. My new way of keeping notes is the order of merit method and this group was .97. I had one flyer and om including that was 1.9 for a fella that usually shoots 2.5 at best that is a marked improvement.

Does anyone else's groups walk left as you shoot (rifle fouls)? I have the flattest groups you can imagine but they are wide. What the hell does that mean. An ol boy at the range told me that to back board are too lose and that affect the point of impact. I wonder if that is the issue. Hell if I could take that out of the mix I might get less than 1" max spread...or maybe not.

Thanks for listening fellas...I'm a bit long winded on this one. If I could get paid for rambleing on about shooting I'd be a millionair.

[fingers]

I read my post over again and I was shooting 5rnd groups when testing powder charge and it was a 2" group.

[IronSight]

fingers,
You mentioned your a newbie, be forwarned, if i had a dollar for everytime i thought i had THE PERFECT LOAD based on a single days worth of shooting, i could retire early. Can't count the times my MOA load turns into a shotgun spread next time out.

Eliminating the drop tube wouldn't help me much as my loading regime involves throwing a coarse charge with a powder measure/drop tube and fine tuning it with an electronic scale. I'm kind of curious about any accuracy improvements though.

As far as the horizontal stringing, usually the basics; front sight focus and are consistent, where you rest the barrel and are consistent, hold and are consistent. This is assuming no fouling or other load issue.

Let us know if the accuracy is consistent without the drop tube.

[fingers]

I agree iron, untill I have a group that proves itself at range too. Nothing is set in stone.

Groupe stringing... postion of the barrel on the rest? I've heard about the twang effect should I rest the barrel or the rifle? Just asking that question makes me think the barrel. Hmmm, I never considered that.

Thanks...maybe that will make a differance. I'm finally getting close on my loads. Now is the time to question other flaws. I shoot well in my other hobbies but never did any sort of competion. I can shoot 1" groups with my 25-06 so I should be able to ok with sort of shooting. I've never shot long range though.

Question. I've heard it said that this type of shooting really proves itself at long range. If I have a good group at 100yrd is the change dramatic further out? If I have a good load at 100yrds am I going to have to start over at 500?

Thanks for the help.

[Ray Newman]

Fingers: some random thoughts.

Really pay attention to your follow thru after you let the hammer drop. The hammer/lock time on the Sharps isn't the fastest & w/ most BP loads, the bullet is still in the barrel when recoil hits you-- I learned this the hard way.

I would pull the lock from the stock & lightly lubricate the moving parts w/ a good lubricant. Same w/ the triggers.

You'll probably find that you'll need to move the barrel up/down on the rest until you find the ever elusive "Sweet spot" where it all comes together. Some Shooters wrap a single band of electrical tape around the barrel to mark the “Sweet Spot."

Yes, you may find a load & bullet combination that will shoot like-a-house-a-fire @ 200yds, only to watch it all go down the toilet @ much longer ranges.

Your lube can also fail due to changing weather conditions….

At the longer distances, velocity drops off, the rainbow-like trajectory really becomes apparent, wind & mirage are bugaboos, & all the little details really do become very, very important in the the BPCR Shooting Craft. Not to mention Shooter fatigue. You’ll also find out just how good your natural eye sight is & if your sights are good enough to accurately repeat & hold the settings.

If you can dry fire w/ a snap cap, practice snapping in. As the Gunny says, Trigger Time is most important.

You asked a Paul Jones moulds. One of the better--some say the best--mould maker around. W/ moulds you often get what you pay for. Quality workmanship & quality materials aren’t cheap.

Don’t throw your drop tube away. Put it in storage.