.45-70 mold

[Sandog]

I have been shooting my Shiloh Sharps with a Lyman #457125 bullet in 1:25 lead/tin in R-P .45-70 cases. Bullets seated to top of first driving band over 62gr. of Goex FFg. and a .030" card wad. Accuracy is excellant but I fins that I have to wipe the chamber/bore after each shot to cahmber the next round. Bullet is engraved by the rifiling to about .100". I'd like to just "blow" after each shot and not have to wipe. Does anyone know if Lyman offers the #457125 in a lower weight? Do I have to go to a custom bullet to get where I want to go? I shoot BPCR Silhouette.
Thanks

[Clarence]

Sandog,

I take from your message that you are seating the bullet with all the grease grooves in the case. You're saying that you still have 0.100" of bullet engraving? Does that mean that the bore riding section is being engraved (you have only 0.060" or so of groove diameter protruding from the case)?

If that's the case, you have one of three problems. You either aren't using your blow tube enough to soften the fouling (that's probably not what you meant by engraving), your barrel bore diameter is smaller than the bore ride diameter of the bullet (mine runs 0.449-0.450"), or your are bumping the bullet diameter when you are seating the bullet.

Are you using a compression die to compress the powder, or trying to compress with the bullet? If that latter, you'll need to get a compression die.

If your bore diameter is smaller than the diameter of the bore ride section of the bullet, this bullet is not well-suited to your rifle. That would be kind of unusual, in my experience.

If you aren't really engraving but getting interference from the fouling, it could be related to the relationship between the bore diameter and bore ride diameter as well.

Please give more details so we can try to help you diagnose the problem.

Clarence

[Sandog]

Clarence:
The bore riding portion of the bullet is in the rifiling when the cartridge is chambered with a clean bore, without any effort. It's the second round that won't chamber without undue effort. Sometimes it will go with only a 'Blow' but usualy it takes a patch to clean up the start of the rifling. So, it looks to me as if its the fouling and not the relationship between bore riding diameter and the bore size. It's just a very tight fit, not an interferance. The combination does shoot very well, I just hate to wipe after each shot.

[RichBratlee]

Sandog-- You may have to increase the powder charge and or the amount of compression--I was having a similar problem that went away when I went to 69 gr of 2F and .300 inchs of compression--can now run 10 to 15 rounds without wiping and then only cuz I start to see an increase in group size

Rich

[BuckeyeShooter]

Sandog, I was thinking exactly what Rich said. I shoot that same bullet in a Winchester case seated to the same depth and usually can go at least 20 rounds with blow tubing before they start to get a little tight. The only thing different is I'm shooting 72 grains of Goex in a full length sized case and as much as 75 grains in a fire formed case. I'm not at home at the moment but if memory serves me correctly compression in these loads is around .250 to .280. The Remington case will not hold as much powder but I think if you get up closer to 70 grains you may see your issue go away.

[deerhuntsheatmeup]

I shot a mid-range match yesterday and no wiping until all 72 rounds were spent. I shot 109 from 200 offhand, 183 from 300 sitting and 143 from 600 prone. I blowtube plenty and have no fouling trouble. The issue of the round being hard to chamber with that particular bullet seems odd. I have shot plenty of that same bullet and brass combo. Makes me think your brass is too long, or you are compressing the powder with the bullet as Clarence said and swelling the bullet diameter up.

I also shoot ffg Goex and with 70 grns compressed plenty, it burns very clean. Try more powder and a compression die and see if your fouling troubles go away.

One more thing, When you bell the case mouth, try just barely belling the case, just enough to where it doesn't shave lead during seating. Then when you seat your bullet, ste the die so that it removes the bell just to where the case wall is straight, not crimped.

I am fairly new at this but I had chambering problems early on and loading this way now, the problems are gone.

Good luck, David Barfield

[Ken Hartlein]

I shoot the same bullet with 66 grains of 2F, I've never had a problem chambering it, in fact I've shot 4 or 5 of these without even using the blow tube, I wonder if you might be bumping the bullet up when you are seating it??

[Sandog]

Thanks for all of your replies. Careful measurement of as cast, sized and seated bullets does not reveal any 'bumping'. I am using a homemade compression die and it compresses about .200" only. I am considering going to more powder, say in the range of 68 gr. Of Goex FFg. This may be accomplished more easily since cases will be fire formed and neck sized only at this stage. So far, I have been using new R-P cases, full length sized. Do Starline cases have more capacity that R-P? I hesitate to use W-W cases as my experience with their quality has not been good in recent years. If that fails to solve the problem, I think I may try a "Paul Mathews' bullet.

[Smokin]

Sandog,

A rule of thumb given me by a good friend and very experienced BP shooter is to take an empty case and very carefully scoop into it the powder of your choice (and here GOEX FFg or Cartridge), strike the powder level with the case mouth, and weigh it. Do this 3 or 4 times to get a good average and this will be the amount of powder with which you should start your load experimenting. In your R-P cases, this should be about 70 grains of FFg. Personally, I use W-W cases and 72 grains of FFg as the W-W cases hold a bit more powder. I dispense my powder through a 36" drop tube and get about 3/16" initial compaction from that technique. Further compression is done via a bronco expanding die and a compression plug from Buffalo Arms for .45's and a bolt I turned down for .40's. I compress the powder enough so I can cover all the grease grooves on my favorite bullet (the SAECO 745) which seats to almost the same depth as does the Lyman 457132 Postell. From what you report, I think you are not using enough powder and, as the others have commented, would probably help your load work-ups if you were to use more powder to help get a cleaner burn. Also, make sure that you are puffing on your blow tube enough. In the summer, I generally use 6-8 lungfulls (lungsful?), depending on the temperature, humidity, and how easily the cartridges slide into the chamber.

From bullets on hand, my insertion depths for bullets from off the dealer's shelf and onto my shelf moulds would be: Lyman 457125, .510"; Lyman 457132, .590"; SAECO 745, .600". This would seat the bullets deeply enough to cover all the grease grooves, but leave the top driving band exposed. I have variously used .030, .060, .003, and .025" wads from various materials such as: purchased "vegetable" fiber wads, LDPE wads, milk carton wads, simply wax paper, baker's parchment paper,and home cut wads of various stripe and description. My current combo is a milk carton wad topped by a baker's parchment paper wad. The total thickness of this is about .028" and I compress the powder with the milk carton wad in place. The top thin wad is used to facilitate the wad release from the bullet. It's the belt and suspenders approach to loading and may be completely unecessary, but like the concerned grandmother commented about giving a recently flat-lined patient a chicken soup enema, in hopes of a miracle recovery, "it can't hurt."

For my rifle (a Ballard # 1 3/4 .45-70) and in this stage of load experimantation, my favorite bullet is the SAECO 745. The Lyman Government style bullet has shot OK, but in my rifle the 745 has out performed it thus far. Good luck, Smokin

[Crotchety Ole Bart]

I'm new to this game but have seen a few of my own loads jam when chambered. I think this is caused by the bullet being set two closely against the rifling. It has been my experience with firing high powered rifles that you want the bullet close to the rifling but it is not necessary for it to be against the rifling. With black powder, the closer the bullet is to the rifling the better chance that fouling with cause jaming. Maybe you need to set the bullet a few thousands futher back into the case.

[Sandog]

I do believe that I'll give the #457125 another chance and go with more powder. I'll start with 66gr. of Goex FFg and work up in .5gr. steps to around 70 grs. Since my Shiloh has no 'lead' in it’s rifling, I'll keep the bullet seated to the top of the first driving band. I am also going to redesign my blow tube to shorten the case so as to get more warm damp air into the chamber and lead area. The 62 gr. load shot very well and I'm loath to change very much about the formula. However, raising the powder charge does seem to be a worthy experiment. I had a similar problem with my Browning 1885 in .40-65. Chambering was not an issue due to the .200 lead in the rifling. Fouling was a problem and it got much better when I increased the load from 58gr. of Goex Ctg. to 64gr. BTY, I have observed that the compressed powder column tends to ‘cake up’ in the middle of the powder stack. When I disassemble a round the powder pours easily from the top down to about the middle of the stack. Any comments on this observation?

[LJBass]

Sandog,
Work your loads up in 2 grain increments in you 45 caliber case. one grain will change your compression about .022". Using half grain increments will take forever to get you close to your optimum compression.
Regards, LJ

[Ken Hartlein]

I don't have my notebook handy but I use the 457132 lyman bullet also. I seat it .590 deep, and if memory serves me that is with .220 of compression. My rifle likes it. I'm going to Goex Cartridge so now I'll have to start over.

[powderburner]

I have had good luck with 68 gns of 2f Goex and that bulletand a 30 wad

[AL Rittenhouse]

Sandog
This may or may not be the case but I hope you are putting more than one blow thru the blow tube. I would think were you are at it would take 5 or 6 long blows Al