Paper Rings etc

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Kurt
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Re: Paper Rings etc

Post by Kurt »

I have rifles with the 45 degree, 12, 7, 5, and 4, And what ever the trapdoor used :) The 4 and 5 degree even have a longer gap because they go from a concentric to a 1.5° compound lead and they all shoot well :D They are more capable to shoot a lot better then I can make them shoot. And they will shoot a GG in the large chambers or PP.

Kurt
The reason a dog has so many friends is because he wags his tail instead of his tongue.

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"Winston Churchill
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Distant Thunder
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Re: Paper Rings etc

Post by Distant Thunder »

I have a Shiloh .45-90 which is chambered for grease groove bullets that I bought used in 2005. Can anyone tell me what angle it likely has?

The reason I ask is because that is the first rifle I had success with in shooting bore diameter paper patched bullets. It shoots them nearly as well as my Hepburn. I had to neck size the cases to hold the .450" patched bullets and I had to dump 100+ grains of 1 1/2 Swiss in the case to fill it to .100" from the mouth. That much powder hurt a little $$$ :roll: I also had to use HDPE wads and 16:1 hardness, but the rifle shoots very well when fed what it likes. I never had any sign of paper rings with it either. Whatever Shiloh put in there works very well with paper patched bullets.

Jim
Jim Kluskens
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gunlaker
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Re: Paper Rings etc

Post by gunlaker »

Jim I believe it'll be a 0.050" freebore with a 2.5 degree leade.

Chris.
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Distant Thunder
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Re: Paper Rings etc

Post by Distant Thunder »

Chris,

Would it have a 45 degree transition where the brass ends in the chamber then?

"...a 0.050" freebore... "! That explains a few things.

I know I was pretty disappointed when I first started loading for it and all my GG bullets seated so deep in the case that I gained only a little powder capacity over my old .45-70 C. Sharps with a .200" freebore. That I fixed by modifying one of my molds to produce a 520 grain bullet with only 3 grease groove so it would seat forward enough to allow the use of 86.0 grains of 1 1/2 Swiss with an acceptable amount of compression. Heck, I was running 80-82 grains in my 70. I had to lean a little heavy on the press handle, but it worked. When I went to bore diameter PP I felt I had too much room for powder in the .45-90. That is why when I built my Hepburn I went back to the .45-70. In it I load 83.0 grains of 1 1/2 and that seems to be just right with my 525 grain bore diameter PP bullet.

That 3-groove bullet was a little light on lube and I had to work at keeping the leading to a minimum. It sure shot well. Going to PP cleared up both the lube and leading problems and gave me better long range scores. So I didn't hesitate to built my Hepburn to shoot only PP. In a 14 1/2 pound rifle the recoil is like shooting my .40-65!

A .45-70 loaded with paper patched bullets, I wouldn't consider any thing else for long range matches. :D
Jim Kluskens
aka Distant Thunder
Kenny Wasserburger
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Re: Paper Rings etc

Post by Kenny Wasserburger »

Jim,

You are correct.

Kenny W
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Wyoming Territory Sharps Shooter
gunlaker
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Re: Paper Rings etc

Post by gunlaker »

Yessir, it will be a 45 degree angle at the end of the case.

Chris.
TexasMac
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Re: Paper Rings etc

Post by TexasMac »

BFD wrote:Dont do it.
I have 45 angles on all of my rifles and they are the most accurate paper patch rifles anywhere. I do not get paper rings.
The Browning .45-70 (but not the .45-90) is probably the very best factory chamber out there.
These Internet forums have screwed up far more rifles that they have "fixed".
Just to correct any misconception from BFD's comment, the Browning BPCR chamber to throat transition angle is 12.45 degrees, not 45 degrees.

Wayne
NRA Life (Benefactor & President's Council) Member, TSRA Life Member, NSSF Member, Author & Publisher of the Browning BPCR book
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semtav
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Re: Paper Rings etc

Post by semtav »

TexasMac wrote: Just to correct any misconception from BFD's comment, the Browning BPCR chamber to throat transition angle is 12.45 degrees, not 45 degrees.
Wayne
Well now that's just going to screw everything up.
Orville
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Re: Paper Rings etc

Post by Orville »

Don in the original Tollofson gun he used a 520 grain bullet and 105 grains of powder, don't know the alloy or the paper thickness, he ordered patches from sharps. The chamber is .472 with the 2-3 degree lead.
BFD the gun was blackballed from shooting, the gun won all the time, and there would be no records unless you could find the club records as it was a local club- clubs. If I was 30 years younger and not so crippled up I would give you a run for your money.
When I'm talking about my Tollofson it has a 15 degree lead I wish it had a shallower lead like the original. When I'm having a good day off the bench my gun will shoot 1/2 MOA I have done it many times while experimenting with different alloys, paper, bullet shapes, they all shoot well it does seem to like 105 grains of Fg. I haven't decided which bullet flys the best a 1000 yards.
As for my guns with the 7 degree lead there is the 40-70, 3 44-77, and a 50-70. My 44-77 creedmoor out of the box with ammo loaded for a different 44-77 put 5 shots in 3 inches at 330 yards, I was planning on taking it to Phoenix until I screwed up my shooting eye had to go to scopes, I had great plans for the 44-77 creedmoor as it has the heel sight.
The 50-70 has no problem hitting a 20 lb propane bottle at 680 yard, if I had done my part the 40-70 would have got all the lay done critters at a silly-wet match.
As for the 7 degree lead it is about the most common angle found in orignials I have looked at I have seen any where from around 15 to 2-3, it works how ever I believe the chamber also makes a difference.
The vast majority of the shooters today are reinventing the wheel.
Charter Member O-G-A-N-T

Shooting grease groove bullets in a sharps is new technology and just a passing fad.
Kurt
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Re: Paper Rings etc

Post by Kurt »

Every serious shooter has a preference for the type of chamber they think is best. I have to many rifles that wont fit in the safe with all sorts of throats and I have settled on a 4°/1.5° compound lead that works for me.
My #2 Creedmoor since I got it no matter what load or bullet I shot in it. After 10-15 rounds fired through this rifle it would loose accuracy do to lead smears from PP and GG bullets. I had the barrel replaced and still the same problem.
For those that say don't use a throating reamer you will screw up a fine rifle, well yes that can happen and will happen if you don't get the reamer made right to fit your existing chamber. I made a chamber cast and took good measurements and had one made, two in fact, one .45 and one .40. The reamer for the .45-90 solved the lead smears and accuracy improved but still it is not what my other .45-90 shoots by a long way.
This reamer has been loaned out and it has done close to 20 chambers now and I have not heard from the one using this reamer that things went down hill for them.
The rifle I'm using this year has a chamber cut from the reamer I had made. It has a tight case neck that just excepts a .451" diameter bullet in the fired case and it has a 4°/1.5°lead. It shoots quite well. Some day I would like to see a shooter that can shoot to see just how well it will shoot. I will admit that I cant shoot well enough anymore to do this rifle justice.

Kurt
The reason a dog has so many friends is because he wags his tail instead of his tongue.

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"Winston Churchill
Old-Win
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Re: Paper Rings etc

Post by Old-Win »

Orville, Can you tell me where I can find information on the Tollofson (Tollefsen) rifle. I enjoy the history of the Sharps rifles and would like to learn more about it. If there are no records, are there newspaper clippings or something a person can connect to the gun? Like what kind of matches was it banned from and where were they held? What was the original owner's first name, where was it shipped to from the factory, any special features in the factory records, and any well known shooters/collectors that may have owned it down the road,etc? Thanks
Kurt
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Re: Paper Rings etc

Post by Kurt »

Bob.

Spend a some time searching the Library of Congress or the Forrest and Stream. I found a mention of the Tollofson in one of the articles.
I did not save it.
https://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/011204860
https://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/011204860
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id= ... 1up;seq=11
The reason a dog has so many friends is because he wags his tail instead of his tongue.

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"Winston Churchill
bobw
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Re: Paper Rings etc

Post by bobw »

Kurt wrote:
The rifle I'm using this year has a chamber cut from the reamer I had made. It has a tight case neck that just excepts a .451" diameter bullet in the fired case and it has a 4°/1.5°lead. It shoots quite well. ""Some day I would like to see a shooter that can shoot to see just how well it will shoot. I will admit that I cant shoot well enough anymore to do this rifle justice.""

Kurt
This is the kind of modesty totally lacking in some bp shooters on this forum.
For those of you who don't know, Kurt went 38/48 at the 2016 "Q" placing 15th out of 697 shooters.
Then returning to Montana after an eye injury 3 weeks later he went 24/40 at the Montana 1000 placing 4 th, the wind was challenging to say the least but on the 4 th target he hit his sighting shot and then went 10 in a row on a 4.5 MOA target with a group that didn't cover more than 15 inches. . I was certainly pleased to be in the same squad and witness that. bobw
bobw
bruce m
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Re: Paper Rings etc

Post by bruce m »

not having a go at anyone, just expressing an opinion.
looking at Charlie's drawings, we can all come to a conclusion based on experience.
my own experience makes it hard for me to believe that 45 degree transitions do not produce paper or lead rings, but others have not had this problem, and more strength to them.
it has become my belief that lead alloy bullets bump into whatever space is available to the prior to any forward movement.
any bullet in the case will bump up to the internal size of the obturated case.
for optimum results, this means using a bullet of the largest diameter that will fill a fired case to minimize lead movement.
whether a bore diameter or groove diameter chamber this is a given.
moving forward on the bullet, bumpup will occur in the transition whatever angle it is.
a low angle transition will take more lead than a steep one, but whatever, it has to be swaged down to fit the barrel as it moves forward.
if it can slide into the barrel without shearing either paper or lead, hopefully in a consistent manner, this is a good thing.
obviously the lower angle will allow this more easily.
any transition is worse than no transition for disturbing a bullet, hence the reason creedmoor shooters used to, and scheutzen shooters still do, breech seat.
some shooters of note are using long, soft, shock absorbing wadstacks.
this allows shorter patching on the bullet and possibly produces less severe bumpup in the transition. it works for them.
however they might be cheating themselves by not being able to use a hard enough alloy to fully minimize wind deflection due to nose slump.
harder alloys require a thin hard wad to bump into the rifling for reliable accuracy.
applying the above thoughts to greaser chambers, my bore diameter pp bullets have become a hybrid type.
the part in the case patches to groove, and slides into a fired case.
the rest patches to bore, and slides with a little friction into the bore.
there have been no dirt diggers with this setup for years.
P.M.s received suggest that others have discovered this method as well.
recovered bullets show absolutely no sign of the change in diameter during firing.
even at 12:1, they need to be patched full length of the shank, suggesting excellent bumpup.
I still believe that they bump into the transition, even though the part in the case is supported and the pert in the barrel is supported.
a 3, 4, 7, etc degree low angle transition lets the expanded bit feed into the barrel smoothly.
the modern 45 degree transition was not adopted until well into the 20th century, even though smokeless powder and jacked bullets had been in use since before 1900.
a look at the saami website chamber drawings will illustrate many older, as well as later, chamber drawings.
surely the older ones were evolved for some reason.
keep safe,
bruce.
ventum est amicus meus
BFD
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Re: Paper Rings etc

Post by BFD »

Bruce, there always must be a transition. Given that, some have less obturation than others because the space to be bridged is shorter. Just like a 5/4 decking boards (not sure what they are in Aussie land), flexes more if put across joists 18" apart than they will when supported by joists that are 16" apart. The same principle probably applies here.

But there are a couple of good ways to be sure you are not getting shearing at that juncture between case mouth and the bore. First, if you wipe with bore pigs between each shot, those paper rings will be found on brushes frequently, where they are hard not to notice. My .45-100 used to do that a lot, and I found those rings often back in the early 90s. Second, when you look at a fired patch, check to see that the side paper is still mostly attached to the part folded under. If it is, no rings could have occurred. Often the base and side paper will be separated, but if the separation comes at the fold (the norm), and not 0.1" higher up the sides, then the patch must be passing over the "gap" okay.

Although lead may be being displaced, it will be minimal in a case that has a steeper angle to the height of the inside of the brass or further and for sure, it is not shearing.

In the end, what shoots best? I have shot a bunch of different chambers including killing my first elk with the much criticized Wolfgang Droegne Shiloh chambers from back in the Farmingdale days. I'm convinced I know what works best based on those experiences. Others have other ideas, and they are welcome to chase'em. But when someone asks what's best, I hate to stand silent while someone recommends what I feel is a substantially poorer alternative for a given application to someone that is about to get his first Singleshot BPCR and wants to go the Full Monte with paper patching to boot. I started that way, and no one was around shooting ppbs to tell me what was best. One infamous poster on this thread was, however, regularly bragging how he loved to see paper patchers at matches because he knew he, "had them beat before they crossed the parking lot". Now he brags about being a paper patcher. It cost me a lot of money and years to get over some of these issues mostly on my own. Some folks might want to cross those crevasses on their first leap.

PS. bobw - you are 100% right. Kurt can shoot with the best of them. But he does tend to experiment on match days, and he's been bit by that a few times. He's a darn good spotter too - don't let him tell you otherwise.
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