Paper Rings etc

Discussions of powders, bullets and loading information.

Moderators: Kirk, Lucinda

Post Reply
User avatar
Don McDowell
Posts: 7633
Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2007 2:04 pm
Location: Ft. Laramie Wy
Contact:

Re: Paper Rings etc

Post by Don McDowell »

Gavin, do hope to see you again, either at Phoenix, or at the Nationals in Raton this coming year.
AKA Donny Ray Rockslinger :?
User avatar
J.B.
Posts: 644
Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2004 10:31 pm
Location: Australia

Re: Paper Rings etc

Post by J.B. »

Ah yes...the hairy nosed wombat. ..now that may explain a lot :lol: Zac I appreciate the offers of support and encouragement ( not to mention bourbon) but I'm afeared I appear to be better at 'talking the talk'...than I am at 'walking the walk' . Don it would be good to catch up again but for the present moment at least , neither Raton or Phoenix are likely for this 'little black duck'. Bruce ...it does sound like an experience for sure although you'd be better teaming up with someone that can tell when the wind changes without sacrificing 3-4 shots in doing so :roll: We've tentative plans to embark on our 'steel pilgrimage' next June but even thats not a given. Thanks to Baker this past June.. at least I've experienced shooting in 47 mph winds. Now that was something to see.... hairy nosed wombats not withstanding. :o

J.B.
"an experimental weapon..with experimental ammunition ? ...Lets experiment "
bruce m
Posts: 3350
Joined: Tue Aug 04, 2009 5:25 am
Location: australia

Re: Paper Rings etc

Post by bruce m »

this wombat has more and more feral hairs appearing all of the time, many of which are in and on the nose.
eyesight is also becoming an issue, particularly with iron sights.
however old age brings with it a certain cunning that cannot be matched by callow youth.
keep safe,
bruce.
ventum est amicus meus
Kurt
Posts: 8428
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2005 10:28 pm
Location: Not Far enough NW in Illinois

Re: Paper Rings etc

Post by Kurt »

Oh man,,, I guess I better bring my pet Wolverine along to protect me from those Wombats if I ever go to one of the shooting matches. But I promise to keep him on a light chain :D
The reason a dog has so many friends is because he wags his tail instead of his tongue.

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"Winston Churchill
User avatar
desert deuce
Posts: 3842
Joined: Mon Apr 14, 2008 10:51 pm
Location: Rio Rico, Arizona

Re: Paper Rings etc

Post by desert deuce »

J.B. to learn to shoot in the wind, you have to shoot in the wind with other shooters that already know how to shoot in the wind.

Bruce, those feral hairs should pick up and signal wind direction changes quickly and you are not getting any younger and your eyesight won't dramatically improve over time.

being safe doesn't get you to the biggest and best matches on the planet... :wink: that job is for airplanes. :roll:
Sometimes you get the chicken, and sometimes you get the feathers!
bruce m
Posts: 3350
Joined: Tue Aug 04, 2009 5:25 am
Location: australia

Re: Paper Rings etc

Post by bruce m »

zack,
will you have your tent at eron's shoot in Colorado?
keep safe,
bruce.
ventum est amicus meus
Blackstone
Posts: 63
Joined: Thu May 29, 2014 11:28 am

Re: Paper Rings etc

Post by Blackstone »

Orville wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2016 10:46 pm Paper rings are caused by the bullet upsetting in the large chamber and the paper getting stripped off when it hits the 45 degree lead.
Orville, I find this topic interesting, I bought a very slightly used 45/110 shiloh in 19 . It has the Loomer chamber and that was what I wanted . It seems all the ex-spirts don't like this chamber . This rifle is the most easy rifle to get to shoot , it has none of these problems, never leaves a paper ring and it doesn't matter the seating depth . It isn't finicky about cartridge length either . I don't know why anyone planing to use ppb's would ever consider a gg chamber
kwilliams
Posts: 284
Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2019 8:42 am
Location: Wyoming

Re: Paper Rings etc

Post by kwilliams »

Loomer chamber? Can you show me a drawing if possible. I am not familiar with it and would like to see the angles involved.
thanks
KW
AzTBH
Posts: 192
Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2005 9:38 am
Location: Peoria, AZ

Re: Paper Rings etc

Post by AzTBH »

kwilliams wrote: Mon Oct 10, 2022 6:48 pm Loomer chamber? Can you show me a drawing if possible. I am not familiar with it and would like to see the angles involved.
thanks
KW
I had the same question KW. The “Ole Pizen Slinger” response, in the following link, is the best description that I have found:

http://shilohrifle.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=16436

Ross
Ross McCollum
Peoria, AZ

NRA Life Member
77 sharps
Posts: 330
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:45 pm
Location: N. CA

Re: Paper Rings etc

Post by 77 sharps »

There’s an illustration on page 3 of this thread that illustrates both Orville’s chamber and Brent’s chamber. I would like to add, that I believe that the later Creedmoor rifles had a 12 Deg. transition, cutting the length of the transition roughly in half. Lessening the bullet distortion nearly to equal Brent’s chamber.
ian45662
Posts: 717
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 3:42 pm

Re: Paper Rings etc

Post by ian45662 »

I like me groove diameter chambers. They allow me to use groovish diameter PPB which allows me to use less powder and gives less recoil. Works really well for the chickens. If I am going to miss them May as well do it with less lead, less powder, and less recoil :D Has anyone heard from Kurt lately?
martinibelgian
Posts: 1609
Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 1:20 pm

Re: Paper Rings etc

Post by martinibelgian »

Yes, groove dia. PP bullets work quite well indeed. Better than bore dia. up to now in my no.2 musket match rifle.
If I do my thing, they are scarily accurate.
Not so much the nut behind... :(
Blackstone
Posts: 63
Joined: Thu May 29, 2014 11:28 am

Re: Paper Rings etc

Post by Blackstone »

Another asset to the original paper patch chamber or Orville or Loomer chamber what ever ya prefer to call it is seating depth is not critical . Ya van seat the bullet deeper or shallower . The original load for the 45 2/78 was 100 gr per and a 500 gr bullet . The sharps literature states you can load up to 20 gr more and that is accomplished by seating the bullet out farther .
Kenny Wasserburger
Posts: 4728
Joined: Tue Sep 24, 2002 3:53 pm
Location: Gillette, Wyoming

Re: Paper Rings etc

Post by Kenny Wasserburger »

Blackstone wrote: Tue Oct 11, 2022 11:00 am Another asset to the original paper patch chamber or Orville or Loomer chamber what ever ya prefer to call it is seating depth is not critical . Ya van seat the bullet deeper or shallower . The original load for the 45 2/78 was 100 gr per and a 500 gr bullet . The sharps literature states you can load up to 20 gr more and that is accomplished by seating the bullet out farther .
Not sure what that has to do with it. The current Shiloh chamber you can do the very same thing. Only my DDEPP has a maximum overall length limit. My straight side Money .446 @ 1.515 no limits on seating depth.

It works just fine in my 16-1.

Got the National Championship to prove it. 2018 no gas no brag, just documented proof. :shock:

Distant Thunder and I looked at multiple Bullets fired into a pool with the so called original camber two distinct rings of bump up and swage down are clearly visible on the bullet. A good bullet catch box with oiled sawdust will prove a good many misconceptions over the superiority of such a chamber.

The original chamber design, won’t shoot a greaser worth a spit, about 3 to 4 MOA vertical, multiple owners of this chamber contact me on how to get it to shoot greasers. After the allure of PP fades they want to go back to grease groove bullets. :shock: The only cure is a new barrel. For the few that claim the chamber is the greatest. There are 3-4 shooters that hate it, regrets their choice.

The 5@200 paper patch record shot with my .446 525 gr bullet that runs 516 gr in 16-1, at 1.336 inches at 200 yards was done with multiple witnesses under a time limit. Standard Shiloh chamber, in 2013 that rifle won the NRA Winter Nationals Scope championship, finished in the top 9 overall and won the NRA Creedmoor Nationals Scope championship that same year finished in the top 10 again. Again no gas or opinions, just documented fact. Same rifle holds the record for the mile top score and 8/10 hits in a single string of fire. Standard chambers shoot fine and will with either bullet PP or Greaser.

The worst bugaboo with PP in long range, is fouling control for me, it’s time consuming and difficult to get off 15 record shots with sighters in 35 minutes in the BPTRA 1000 yard match. Being able to get off quick shots in a condition, the real issue, it’s meant to put pressure on the shooter and spotter. In regular competition 10 record shots in 30 mins plus sighters.

I plan on a different fouling control regimen next year, two Gullo bore wipers a damp patch to follow then a dry for chamber and barrel. Currently in very warm and dry conditions, Phoenix or Byers in September I use a single wiper with 2 felts then 2 or 3 wets then 2 dries that’s a lot of wiping, takes to long. This is from paying close attention to the patches coming out of the barrel. Edwin Perry’s book was insistent about the need for a clean barrel from shot to shot, the old timers didn’t call it fouling control, the term they used was treatment. He also lists the alloys used in the Match of 1879, the softest alloy used was 14-1. Not pure lead or nearly so.

Lot of opinions, here. Very little results on the target range to back it up, actually none. Match attendance records are pretty easy to find. The biggest proponents of these chambers are oddly enough absent from those match rosters. :?: Though their excuses for not attending are plentiful and well publicized on the forums.

Aero made a rather insightful observation about Byers about all the frames shot up at the BPTRA. I know the frame next to my target got 9 frame hits in a single relay both shooters were using greasers. Matter of fact all but one shooter was using grease groove bullets. By far and large the majority of target frame damage was done with Grease groove bullets. Just to keep the information correct and in perspective.

Even Dave Gullo took a couple low misses during the last day at 1000 yards, conditions were extremely tough.

One last thing don’t accept criticism from someone, that you wouldn’t ask advice from.

Kenn W.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Blackstone
Posts: 63
Joined: Thu May 29, 2014 11:28 am

Re: Paper Rings etc

Post by Blackstone »

Kenny Wasserburger wrote: Tue Oct 11, 2022 1:58 pm
Blackstone wrote: Tue Oct 11, 2022 11:00 am Another asset to the original paper patch chamber or Orville or Loomer chamber what ever ya prefer to call it is seating depth is not critical . Ya van seat the bullet deeper or shallower . The original load for the 45 2/78 was 100 gr per and a 500 gr bullet . The sharps literature states you can load up to 20 gr more and that is accomplished by seating the bullet out farther .
Not sure what that has to do with it. The current Shiloh chamber you can do the very same thing. Only my DDEPP has a maximum overall length limit. My straight side Money .446 @ 1.515 no limits on seating depth.

It works just fine in my 16-1.

Got the National Championship to prove it. 2018 no gas no brag, just documented proof. :shock:

Distant Thunder and I looked at multiple Bullets fired into a pool with the so called original camber two distinct rings of bump up and swage down are clearly visible on the bullet. A good bullet catch box with oiled sawdust will prove a good many misconceptions over the superiority of such a chamber.

The original chamber design, won’t shoot a greaser worth a spit, about 3 to 4 MOA vertical, multiple owners of this chamber contact me on how to get it to shoot greasers. After the allure of PP fades they want to go back to grease groove bullets. :shock: The only cure is a new barrel. For the few that claim the chamber is the greatest. There are 3-4 shooters that hate it, regrets their choice.

The 5@200 paper patch record shot with my .446 525 gr bullet that runs 516 gr in 16-1, at 1.336 inches at 200 yards was done with multiple witnesses under a time limit. Standard Shiloh chamber, in 2013 that rifle won the NRA Winter Nationals Scope championship, finished in the top 9 overall and won the NRA Creedmoor Nationals Scope championship that same year finished in the top 10 again. Again no gas or opinions, just documented fact. Same rifle holds the record for the mile top score and 8/10 hits in a single string of fire. Standard chambers shoot fine and will with either bullet PP or Greaser.

The worst bugaboo with PP in long range, is fouling control for me, it’s time consuming and difficult to get off 15 record shots with sighters in 35 minutes in the BPTRA 1000 yard match. Being able to get off quick shots in a condition, the real issue, it’s meant to put pressure on the shooter and spotter. In regular competition 10 record shots in 30 mins plus sighters.

I plan on a different fouling control regimen next year, two Gullo bore wipers a damp patch to follow then a dry for chamber and barrel. Currently in very warm and dry conditions, Phoenix or Byers in September I use a single wiper with 2 felts then 2 or 3 wets then 2 dries that’s a lot of wiping, takes to long. This is from paying close attention to the patches coming out of the barrel. Edwin Perry’s book was insistent about the need for a clean barrel from shot to shot, the old timers didn’t call it fouling control, the term they used was treatment. He also lists the alloys used in the Match of 1879, the softest alloy used was 14-1. Not pure lead or nearly so.

Lot of opinions, here. Very little results on the target range to back it up, actually none. Match attendance records are pretty easy to find. The biggest proponents of these chambers are oddly enough absent from those match rosters. :?: Though their excuses for not attending are plentiful and well publicized on the forums.

Aero made a rather insightful observation about Byers about all the frames shot up at the BPTRA. I know the frame next to my target got 9 frame hits in a single relay both shooters were using greasers. Matter of fact all but one shooter was using grease groove bullets. By far and large the majority of target frame damage was done with Grease groove bullets. Just to keep the information correct and in perspective.

Even Dave Gullo took a couple low misses during the last day at 1000 yards, conditions were extremely tough.

One last thing don’t accept criticism from someone, that you wouldn’t ask advice from.

Kenn W.
I have both styles of chamber , I shoot paper patch in both . I believe you miss the point entirely. Both work very well I'm not promoting one over the other as to accuracy that would be absolute stupidity . I'm only saying the tight chamber has some very good qualities . I don't experience and problems at all with it . I'll be setting up an oiled sawdust trap perhaps this winter I'll post my findings . I do really enjoy being able to just check length , price, powder , wad and seat the bullet that the tight chamber allows with out wsing the dd bullet .
Post Reply