Today's Paper Patch Shooting Results

[MLV]

Since there is another thread about paper patch bullets I thought some of you might be interested in the results I received with them this morning. This was for an upcoming article I'm doing for Shooting Times Magazine.

The rifles were a Shiloh with RHO scope and an original Sharps. Barrel lengths were 30" and 28" in the same order and both were .45-70s. Bullets were 503 grains of 1/20 alloy from a Pioneer mould. They have a cupped base and are tapered. After patching with .002 paper they measure .459 inch at the very base and .446 inch at the top of the patch.

I won't go into the smallest details of reloading them because it is all found in my Buffalo Rifles book. Powder charge was 63 grains of 1 1/2 Swiss, primers were Federal 215s, and there was a 1/8 disk of SPG between a .030 inch wad under and a .060 inch wad over. However, I should say that I didn't use fixtures and such to apply the patches. They were put on by the "eyeball" method and put on dry except for wetting the end of the patch with my lips so that it would stick. I wasn't trying for match accuracy, but trying to duplicate how a buffalo hunter might have done things in camp. I would accept about 1/16 of unevenness on the height of patches from bullet to bullet, and if they were slightly crooked I didn't worry about it. Also I used a Lyman taper crimp die to lock the bullets in the cases after they were seated.

Three five shot groups were fired with each rifle at 100 yards after a single fouling shot was put downrange. I blew three breaths into the chamber after each shot. The three Shiloh groups were 2 5/8, 2/58, and 1 3/8 inches. Chronograph figures were ES-14/avg. 1127, ES-7/avg. 1125, and ES-8/avg. 1123. Interesting that the last group was the tightest after firing that many shots.

With the original Sharps the three groups at 100 yards measured 2 7/8, 2 5/8, and 3 5/8 with four of the five shots in that last group going into only 2 1/8 inches. It was #3 and went wide to the right. Chronograph figures were ES-14/avg. 1112, ES-9/avg. 1109, and ES-11/avg. 1107.

But that wasn't all. As a grand finale after cleaning I fired another group with each rifle without blowing or cleaning between shots. Say as to duplicate what might happen if one had a wounded animal and needed to shoot fast. With the Shiloh the fouling shot went into the group, but I felt the patch on shot #5 tear as it was chambered so I pulled it out and stopped there. That 4 shot group was 2 1/2 inches. With the original the fouling shot went about two inches high BUT GET THIS. The next five shots cut a 3/4 inch group. None of the 6 shots fired from the original had any resistance in chambering. Its chamber and leade are obviously looser than the Shiloh's. With both the Shiloh and the Original Sharps the velocities were about the same between the first groups and that last one, but the ES figures jumped up into the mid to high 20s when there was no blowing between shots.

And that's all I've got to say about that!

[Rick Crabtree]

Good show Mike! I have found I get tighter sd's using Walters .010" instead of the thicker ones. I can only speculate but I think it is because the thinner wad offers less insulation from the heat and allows the bullet lube more liquidity and thus softer fouling. But I am sure this is subjective to the lube formula used.

[KHR]

Mike,
great info! How did the old timers put in their grease cookies? did they put them between cards like we do?
Also mathews wrote about using wax paper on the lube cookie, how about waxpaper, lube, then .060 wad then bullet, what do you think?

keith

[Brent]

Mike, shooting fast is generally better than shooting slow if you are going to shoot dirty. The fouling seems to set up or harden and adhere to the barrel more if it sits there in a hot barrel for very long. This is worse on dry days than humid days perhaps.

Have you tried Bill's heavy compression (>0.5"?) You may be surprised. I know I was.

Brent

[taw1126]

This interests me a great deal as I've got an original Business Rifle on the way and I'm enamoured by the idea of using paper patched bullets in it. Enamoured to me means "sounds so neat that I'm probably not thinking clearly". That said, I have two pressing questions:

1) For someone who shoots infrequently, will the patches appreciably wear an original rifle's barrel?
2) Does anyone think this is a loading method suited to beginners?

I have no desire to cast my own bullets but see that Buffalo Arms will gladly sell me suitable (but unpatched) bullets and other necessary gear. Just not sure how much bigger the frustration factor might be if I try to start here.

Thanks,
Trey

[Brent]

[quote="taw1126"]
1) For someone who shoots infrequently, will the patches appreciably wear an original rifle's barrel?
2) Does anyone think this is a loading method suited to beginners?

I have no desire to cast my own bullets but see that Buffalo Arms will gladly sell me suitable (but unpatched) bullets and other necessary gear. Just not sure how much bigger the frustration factor might be if I try to start here.

Thanks,
Trey[/quote]

Trey,
The answers you get will undoubtedly vary, but so far as I'm concerned the answer to #1 is no - I've shot thousands of paper patched rounds and I have no decline in accuracy. It is the ONLY bullet I shoot in my Shiloh.

The answer to #2 is Yes. In fact, I would suggest it is a great place to start. This is where I started with reloading, with bpcr, and with my Sharps. Never even thought of anything else.

Like I said, some folks will differ but I can speak from my own experience on both counts. You can do it. And we will help!

Brent

PS. I bought my Sharps in August and killed my first elk with a paper patched bullet the following November (years ago). Folks on the net helped me a lot, as did Matthew's book [b]The Paper Jacket[/b], but until then, I had never fired anything bigger than a .308, had never reloaded a rifle cartridge of any type, and really didn't have a clue what I was doing.

[JAGG]

MLV ! You are still in the 45/70 carbine velocity range ! Drop tube some 70 grains of 2fg into those cases like you were going to hunt something with them and see how they shoot then ! The old hunters loaded for power and range ! I agree with Brent on shooting fast in a fouled barrel ! What i believe happens is when you leave the barrel fouled for to long , that some of the moisture from the air is soaked up by the fouling and the heat from the barrel bakes it on hard ! JAGG

[Rick Crabtree]

Once again Brent is right on the money. If one starts with PP bullets his mind is not fouled (pun intended) with superposing GG knowledge to PP bullets.

[MLV]

Just for information: This shooting lasted for well over an hour and a half because I was alternating rifles and doing some other shooting project at the same time. Each five shot group for each rifle probably didn't happen sooner than 20 to 25 minutes. So the fouling had plenty of time to set up, and with that in mind the results look even better. Humidity around here this morning was in the 20 to 25% range. I honestly think that original would shoot all day without tearing patches as long as the barrel was blown in between shots.

Jagg: As for the extra powder that would be easy but this was the same basic load I had tried in both rifles before, and this was done as a demonstration, or example so to speak. An extra seven grains of powder would raise velocities from 50 to 70 fps. So what I'm going to do next is go for "real" power and use Swiss FFFg. That should net 100 fps or more. I'll let you know.

Also, keep in mind that this shooting was only done with hunting rifles, not match quality ones.

[Buckskinner]

MLV

Thanks for the info. I really believe paperpatch will shoot 1" groups more often than given credit for. I just wanted to mention that I did not blow or clean in anyway between shots with my 50-90. My goal is to break all the rules and see if I can still get there?? I am temp. hung up on getting 1F Goex at this time or I would be shooting.
Thanks again
Gary

[JAGG]

MLV ! Try some U.S. made Goex 2fg in those loads also ! You should then be breaking 1300fps ! This tappered bullet sounds interesting ! JAGG

[Lee Stone]

Gary,

If your looking for a source of Fg Goex (or any other granulation) I got my last case of Fg from Powder Inc. up in Clarksville, Arkansas. Good people.

http://www.powderinc.com/

[KHR]

Gary,
I second the statement of Lee. the powder inc people will work with ya, you can mix granulations and brands, Powder Inc was out of swiss at the time of my last order, and they rounded some up from other suppliers to fill my order promply.

keith

[Bill R]

Nice results Mike.

I developed PP loads for a buffalo hunting trip last year following the loading method Mike describes in his book as closely as possible.

I used a paper-patched load in my Shiloh 45/90 and 500gr PP bullets from a Tom Ballard mold. The bullet dimensions are nearly identical to the Pioneer mold Mike describes. My load was:

45/90 Starline brass
75gr Swiss 1.5F, compressed 0.05 inch
Fed 210M
0.06 inch King plastic wad, 0.120 inch SPG, with 0.03 inch King VF wad on top
500gr Tom Ballard PP bullet cast 1-40
100% cotton paper from Dave Gullo, paper slightly wet when patched, no lube on patch
OL = 3.30 inch
Used Lyman taper crimp die
Velocity was about 1230 fps

I tested the load using 3-shot groups at 200yds, starting with a clean barrel and not using a blow tube to simulate hunting conditions. The rifle shoots very well for the first 3 shots then - fowling prevents the paper patch from cleanly entering the chamber. The first shot always went into the group. Group sizes were:

Group 1: 1.25"H x 1.0"V
Group 2: 2.75"H x 0.5"V
Group 3: 4.0"H x 2.5"V
Group 4: 3.0"H x 1.5"V (shot with post)

Using a blow tube, I can generally fire about 10 shots before fouling begins to damage the patch. I shot a buffalo cow with this load and rifle at Sandhills Ranch, Nebraska from 140 yds with great performance.

[Ken Hartlein]

taw, you can get patched PPB's from Montanna Bullet Works, the last ones I got from him were $11/50 plus shipping. I also get my powder from Powder, Inc from Arkansas, three of us split a case and they will put anything you want in the case, even sell you 5 or 10 pounds if you like.

MLV, that is really an eye opener, I have some PPB's, I even thought about shooting a club match with them just for the fun of it, with that info I might just do it!! Thanks for a real interesting report.