Shiloh Rifle Forums

Will start a new thread instead of adding to an old one. Have mixed 2 batches from my BACO Money Bullet. One at 25:1 one at 16:1. Loaded up 26 rds of the 16:1 to test first. Amazingly accurate at my 900 yd. target, getting on target on the 3rd shot. With about 12 rds. left I had a defugalty with my Shiloh 16 lb. So I finished with my LRE. First thing I am curious when changing bullets, alloys etc. is now much leading I am getting. (I don't have a rifle that doesn't lead) The Bull barreled rifle had more than I was hoping but, cleaned up nicely. Grabbed the LRE next, and whoa Nellie....with only 10 or 12 rds. I got more lead than anytime before ever. And yes, I've used every lube that I can buy DGL and SPG, home made etc. My question is have any of you that have rifles that DO lead, been able to determine which is worse.....softer alloy or harder alloy. Just curious. Thanks Rifles are 45-90's using DGL lube at the present time. Was using new brass also. And both shoot this same load real well.

P.S. Yes I do and have shot PP so we don't need to go there.

charlie,
no leading is the best for accuracy, and is achievable usually.
a number of things can cause leading, some of which are -
1) bore riding noses bumping into the rifling too hard. the bumped up nose carries no lube, and will benefit from blowtubing more than wiping.
a lubed bore of some sort is required for this. softer bullets will cause leading more than harder ones here, but be aware that 16:1 is not necessarily hard enough.
2) 45 degree transitions can damage bullets, as well as leave lead rings. both conditions are heading for leading which once started will only get worse.
sometimes playing with seating depths can help here. altering alloy might also help.
3)bullet size under the size of the interior of an obturated case can cause leading by allowing gas blowby and the cutting that goes with.
softer bullets can help this as they can bump up faster, and certain wads will seal gas better than others.
the best sized bullet is the one that will slide into a fired case.overly sized brass can make bullets too small, and also damage the bullet base.
if you must use tension, look for 0.0005 to 0.001.
3)rough leade angles on the origin of rifling can act like a file, rasping lead off the bullet which can end up gown the barrel.
4)other
establishing the cause will help with the cure.
what does the leading look like?
keep safe,
bruce.

With the Money bullet I'd go 16:1 over 25:1 every time. The softer the alloy the more likely the bullet's nose will bump up into the grooves. I have a .40 cal Snover bullet that a friend gave me and the nose has expanded into the rifling for at least half of its length. Not a good way to avoid leading.

Also, be aware that not all of the Money bullets have the same nose profile. As an example, my BACO 459535M bullet measures 0.452" at the largest part of the nose, while my BACO 458535M measures .449" at the largest part of the nose. They both shoot very well in my various .45 cal Shiloh rifles but the one with the bigger nose always leaves some lad in the bore.

Assuming that you wipe between shots, what you do here can also affect things. Too much moisture in the bore can be a bad thing. I tried some bore wipers that left a lot of wiping fluid in the bore. This caused more leading after a single bank of silhouette animals than I'd pull out of the bore in an entire season

Chris.

My wiping technique is the same that I've been using for years. Varying only when the temp/humidity change enough to warrant changing the moisture in my patches. Gonna try the 25:1 next, was just disappointed in the amount of lead that the one gun had over the other.

I guess the best way to find out the answer to a question, is to give it a whirl and try to get the answer ones self. Shot the same 26 brass as the other night. Only thing different is this is their second firing. Annealed the same both times. Conditions not as good, but still pretty dang good. Took me a little longer to get on target, but after doing so the 25/1 out shot the 16/1 hands down. But the real test was if the gun was leading. Almost zero lead...just a few minor specks. No indication of fliers, tests will continue, but as of now the 25/1 out of the Money Bullet is the winner. The target is a 24X26 plate at 900 yds.

Charlie, four questions:
* What is the groove diameter of your rifle?
* What is the base diameter of your BACO Money Bullet
* Where is the leading in the bore: Breech or Muzzle end of the bore?
* What lube are you using?
Leading occurs from lube starvation and gas leakage due to an undersized bullet
I shoot the Money Bullet cast with 1:16 and have zero leading

* Don't know.
* Sized .4585
* Breech...although with the 16/1 did find small amount farther up the barrel
* As mentioned above DGL at the moment.

charlie, if a softer bullet solves this problem, it might suggest the need for a bigger bullet.
if your bullets are casting bigger than you size them to you could try pan lubing some as cast.
using 25:1 money bullets detracts from the reason you use them, because the noses will completely reform in shape and go more like the obsolete creedmoor design.
at longer ranges you can tell the difference in bc from 25:1 to 16:1 in comeup required and more importantly wind deflection.
if you can access a ball mike, you can measure the o.d of fired cases, and the neck thickness.
subtract 2x neck thickness from o.d. and you have the bullet diameter you need.
keep safe,
bruce.

Bruce, if the bullet is hitting consistently a 24"x27" target at 900 yds. I can't see the bullet is deforming, therefore maintaining the reason for the money bullet. If I have to start pan lubing I'll hang up the guns. The bullet casts at .459, the idea of shooting them as cast is not a bad idea and I can do that with a different die in my sizer.

Can you fit a .459" bullet in your fireformed brass? In my .45-207/8" rifle with the 14 lb bull barrel I'm using .458" bullets which are a perfect slip fit in Norma brass. I definitely couldn't fit a .459". I'm also using DGL.

One thing about the bull barreled rifles that you have probably noticed is that they have slightly tighter bores than the regular heavy barrels. This might increase the chances of the nose bumping up and causing leading.

Chris.

What are you using for wads? Just wondering you say all your rifles lead, are you using Kroil by chance?


None of my Shilohs lead, only if don't do a proper job of fouling control. In my long range rifles, I pp so no leading issues.

Kenny Wasserburger

Thanks for your responses gentlemen. We are kind of going in circles here.

Kenny, .060 Walter wad. .462 diameter. I get no leading with PP either. No Kroil.

Charlie

I shoot GG cast from my PJ Creedmoor and Postel bullet moulds, in my .45-70 &.45-90 Shiloh rifles.
They are shot 'as-cast', with 30/1 alloy from John Walters.
The bullets 'drop' at .4585 dia and pan lube with DGL.
Use a white paper coffee filter 'wad' over the Br2 primer and a .060 Walters fiber wad, under the bullet.
Load with 2F, Old 'E'.
99% of the time I will BT only.
I will at times, get just a spec or two of lead streaks in the '90. Very easily removed with a few passes for a 50cal bronze brush with Eezox.
Gary

Charlie
Let me give you a little example what a money bullet looks like when fired with a softer alloy. I seldom shoot a GG bullet so I don't work with them to often to get an alloy hardness worked up for them. This site don't allow you to down load a large file to get a good look at so you might have to zoom it up on your end to get a close look at it. The picture is sharp enough that I can zoom it in 1000%
The top four bullets are the micro mini .459" money bullets and they were shot with the .45-2.4 Shiloh. The third from the left is unfired and the first and second was shot with straight WW and the far right was shot using 1/20 Roto Metal their pre mixed alloy. The unfired bullet has a length of 1.457".
The bullet fired was set back .060" to 1.397" and look at the ogive how much it was set back ahead of the front driving band. This particular bullet developed a little bend sideways but this does not happen to often but I do see it now and then. If the setback is straight back then no problem with it shooting pretty well, it will just develop a little more drag and hit lower and even this will not be a problem if all loads are of the samm alloy mix they will all hit at the same sight setting. But if that nose gets set off to the side slightly, some call this slump, it will wander out of the group. This bullet I cant find the picture for it that shows the land cuts higher on the ogive then the oposit side.
Granted this could accur more using a GG then a PP if the bullet was seated with excess runout in the case and 1/20 is a little harder then 1/25 but there is only a slight change with the setback between the two alloys.
Also a hard fiber wad compared to a softer like a cork or felt makes a difference with the setback.

Kurt

Thank you Kurt
G.