Trends in Gong Matches

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mike herth
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Re: Trends in Gong Matches

Post by mike herth »

Are there disadvantages to using Blackhorn, other than BP only matches? Two years ago at the Q in the registration line we had to answer if we were using smokeless, single or double-based. The two guys in front of me responded they didn’t know the difference, and they stated they didn’t know which smokless powder was used in their loads because someone else had loaded them.
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Don McDowell
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Re: Trends in Gong Matches

Post by Don McDowell »

The often maligned "53" page rule book, specifies safety procedures. The Range officers enforce those procedures at the NRA matches. So there is a vast difference in safety procedures between some gong matches and the NRA matches. The huge crowd at the Quigley would take probably a dozen or more RSO's patrolling behind the lines. Yet again people who have not ever attended an NRA championship match would do well to go to one, even just to observe, and take particular note of the difference in the manner of the match as compared to a "typical" gong match.
I thought that was somewhat of a cheap shot at Brent on the other thread. 03's have been known for years to have some lots that were improperly heat treated and prone to coming apart... As to your assertion about all cast bullet loads being the same is one of the things that just scares the hell out of me, as it's an often repeated thought. Anyone who is into smokeless loading would do quite well to look at the pressure data provided in reloading manuals , but few do. They think that just because the cast bullet load in a rifle has lower velocity than a jacketed bullet the pressures are lower,, that's where folks get into trouble. A great example of this is Trailboss powder, a maximum charge in the 45-70 only achieves about 3/4 of the velocity of a full case of blackpowder, yet generates pressures right at the firewall of maximum pressure.
I messed with BH209 a bit, and while it does produce some good accuracy, it also runs at very high pressures when an accurate load is found. Cases fired in a modern 45-70 rifle that never need resizing when loaded with black, must be resized after a charge of 209. Westerns data provides the pressure data, and again few if any folks actually look at that data.
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Kurt
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Re: Trends in Gong Matches

Post by Kurt »

A reduced smokeless load with the wrong powder can be just as dangerous as a over load.
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semtav
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Re: Trends in Gong Matches

Post by semtav »

Don McDowell wrote: I thought that was somewhat of a cheap shot at Brent on the other thread. 03's have been known for years to have some lots that were improperly heat treated and prone to coming apart... As to your assertion about all cast bullet loads being the same is one of the things that just scares the hell out of me, as it's an often repeated thought. Anyone who is into smokeless loading would do quite well to look at the pressure data provided in reloading manuals , but few do. They think that just because the cast bullet load in a rifle has lower velocity than a jacketed bullet the pressures are lower,, that's where folks get into trouble. A great example of this is Trailboss powder, a maximum charge in the 45-70 only achieves about 3/4 of the velocity of a full case of blackpowder, yet generates pressures right at the firewall of maximum pressure.
.
Don you totally took my statement out of context. I was talking about the safety of sitting beside someone shooting smokeless at one of the many different cast bullet matches. . It doesn't matter what type of gun your neighbor is shooting. If he is shooting smokeless you have no idea how he loaded it or how safe it is. As far as the cheap shot at Brent, Paul made a valid point. Brett took a known unsafe gun to a match and sat down by other shooters and shot it. How do you know the competitor next to you isn't doing the same thing ?
I'm glad what happened to Brent did, and that he is ok because I have an identical rifle that I had been struggling with for a couple of years trying to figure out if I could safely take it to a match. If Brent would have had success with his( and i was watching because he had posted about it) I might have taken it to a match and the outcome could have been a lot worse.
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Re: Trends in Gong Matches

Post by hipshot1 »

Has the Quigley become the 1911 of rifle shoots? everyone compares pistols to the 1911, are all shoots now being compared to the Quigley? I hope not because the Q is in a class of its own just because of the number of shooters.
We can never have too much safety! Don't think something cant happen at the nationals. At one of the gong shoots we go to they now take role call at the safety meeting, if your not there you don't shoot. This happened because some people thought that they herd it all and they didn't need to attend, You can never hear too much about safety, everyone is a range officer. if you see something wrong don't be afraid to say something.
it seems to be the thought on here that if you shoot black you are safe. things can happen with black too, one little mistake can have a bad ending so we all need to be watching.
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bpcr shooter
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Re: Trends in Gong Matches

Post by bpcr shooter »

There are lots of GREAT thoughts and ideas here hopefully we ALL can take something away from this and quite possibly save someone's hands, life, etc.


For me I will NEVER let someone sit down next to me an just shoot, without me first seeing what they are shooting and how, even if I have to stand up and take a break I just don't trust anyone (if you see a gun blow you will probably feel the same) just as I will never sit down next to someone without seeing how/what they are shooting. What's safe in some peoples mind isn't safe!!!! not saying I am the only safe person out there, its just what I do.....right or wrong :mrgreen:
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semtav
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Re: Trends in Gong Matches

Post by semtav »

I just want to correct a statement I made earlier. I don't know if Brent's mishap occured at a match or while practicing. I apologize if I misspoke.
charlie young
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Re: Trends in Gong Matches

Post by charlie young »

In can honestly say that I have won some matches with my scope, and shot scores that I haven't been able to achieve with my iron sights. That being said with some help from my eye doctor and some tweeking, I shot some scores this year with irons that I couldn't have done a few years ago. I agree with KW, on some of the safety concerns of Gong Matches. The offhand at the Quigley, scares the crap out of me and as far as i'm concerned should be eliminated. I like Black Powder and have never shot a smokeless round through any of my Shilohs, and I personally think they shoot better with Black. I do have concerns as has been mentioned above about a smokeless round wrecking havoc, that is one reason I switched to black so I wasn't the one that had the mishap.

The Quigley is a huge match and all the trophies are nice. Gives the people who travel long distances a shot at getting something to take home. Smaller matches like the 1000, mini, and memorial matches, I have no qualms with throwing all the shooters into one pot as far as scopes and irons. But might be nice to give one trophy that says Match Winner, and then follow with 1st, 2nd, etc. for mens and womens, with the 1st place trophy going to someone other than the Match Winner. Just my thought, will continue to travel to the matches no matter how it's done.

Charley
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Re: Trends in Gong Matches

Post by Old-Win »

Charlie, I haven't seen any problems at the off hand during the Quigley since they put in the 24 standards with cradles to hold the rifles. Keeps every bodies rifle pointed down range. It does get pretty crowded down there though. What have you seen that looks spooky? Every time I go to the rifle range, there is a certain amount of hazard just because of what it is. Did the guy next to me load a double charge or the wrong powder. Does the guy with the AR know what the hell he's doing. Always a certain amount of risk and we just all need to be mindful of what's going on around us. I get spooked the most when I'm the first one there and I'm down range posting targets and hope the next guy to show up, sees me.
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Re: Trends in Gong Matches

Post by Kurt »

A gong match is a lot safer than driving down the highway where you meet a head on that is only 4 to 6 feet away coming in your direction or falling out of your own truck and getting run over.
The reason a dog has so many friends is because he wags his tail instead of his tongue.

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Shadow 4
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Re: Trends in Gong Matches

Post by Shadow 4 »

Was going to post this 2 weeks ago when this thread was started, decided not to, I've changed my mind

Thought's:
semtav wrote:A recent thread got me to thinking about changes we are seeing in gong matches and wondering what others think about them

First is scopes. As the general shooting age is increasing, I'm seeing more scopes being used at matches. Do the sponsoring entities still think they need to be separated into different categories or is there a clear advantage ?
I've hashed this scope v irons thing out before.
I remember when they were welcomed to shoot matches, they got NOTHING for it afterward, they had ageing eyes & still wanted to compete. We made a plaque for first place, the same (ONLY) scoped shooter got tired of being handed the plaque, As a matter of fact commented to me as I handed it to him for maybe the second or third match in a row, "This is embarrassing", I seen his point and took NO OFFENSE, as it was not meant that way. I became disgusted with the situation, lack of recognition for the scopes, (one). Time to step out on that limb & make the plaques.
Mind you, I didn't own a BPCR scope at that time, nor would I for quite a few years. (I had no dog in the fight, it was about building up the # of scope shooters), (Ok, so there was a dog in the fight, it is the shoots itself)

My reason/rational for having 1st thru 3rd place trophy plaques made for the scoped shooters was that they love to shoot, it "keeps them in the game", doing just that, shooting, these guys spend around $1200+ to get set up, and, I said "If we build it, they will come", look around now, sometimes we've got around a dozen scoped rifles, annnnnnnd, they're getting it "figured out"

There were very few scopes around this neck of the woods back then, & I believe that the largest determining factor for the number of scoped shooters now, ...........WE GAVE THEM A CLASS TO SHOOT IN, there was now this very large, invisible "sign" that said "Welcome Scoped shooters"
semtav wrote:Second is the use of lights to score hits instead of radios. Anyone have any pros or cons about their use?
I used a light year before last, worked good :D then came this year, all sorts of false flashes, tuning didn't help, turned it off and never used it after :cry:
I believe that I'll stick to the radios, if you actually spend some time with them, in real world situations, hardly do they fail, the more your targets "RING", the more success you'll have, all you need to do is hang a radio on your target, turn the one for the line on and swing that hammer, make needed adjustments and go on. It's not always perfect, but more often than not, it is :wink:

Mind you, there are RULES YOU MUST FOLLOW to make radios work for you
If you can't get your radios to work well, you're doing it wrong, or your targets suck, if they don't ring, they suck, if they go "THAAAAAWACK", THEY SUCK, fix them. Radios don't like "THAAAAAWACK", the "THAAAAAWACK" is to short, the "RIIIIIIIINNNNNNNNNG" IS WHAT RADIOS LIKE
semtav wrote:Third is powder usage. is anyone seeing a trend in winners shooting one type over another ?
Haven't cared to stop and sort it out, though paper patchers seem to be winning everything lately :roll:
semtav wrote:Fourth is Prone verses sitting. The few matches I attend don't show that much of an advantage of one over the other altho prone should have a clear advantage..
Shot some silhouettes prone last two seasons, big guns and 22's, takes me a minute to get vertical again, paid dearly for it afterwards, if I could, I'd shoot it all prone, far superior position than trying to compete from a rickety chair and wobbly cross sticks. :wink:

semtav wrote:We held a memorial shoot for Buz Coker in September and chose not to separate the scope and iron sight shooters into separate categories.
The outcome was interesting.

First place was a male shooter with 31 hits, shooting black powder and using a scope.
Second place shooter was a female with 31 hits shooting smokeless and using iron sights
That's about as even as you can get in every category !!
Yes, that is interesting, love to see it, great to ponder,....................that being said

as a Match Director

I don't care about who placed where
I don't care about what powder they were using
I don't care about what sight they were using
I don't care about how young/old they are or how good/bad their eyesight is/isn't
Hell, I care even less if their bullets wear diapers :lol:
That's not what match directors should care about
What you damn well better care about is...........................

It's an OPTICAL ADVANTAGE

I know a young lady that was introduced to scoped silhouette in 2017. Took a couple of matches to get comfortable with the new setup. By the end of her third match had it "mostly figured out". Spent some time "fine tuning" the use.

In her second "GONGBONGER" (buffalo) match she was Scope Champion and Match Champion. No scope shooter had done it at any of the local Buffalo Matches. I'd been prodding the scope guys to do it for years to settle this "IRONS V SCOPE" thing when they had the two "combined", I know Mark Meccage placed 2nd during that time of combined, maybe more than once, & I think someone else did so also

The reason to not separate the two back then was,
"They can't adjust their sights any better on their scopes than we can on our irons", I told them, you just wait, they'll get'm figured out, then you'll get pissy about it,

it's an optical advantage.

I believe the gentleman, (George Jordan) has done it a couple times, Savannah's done it a couple of times, guy's in my little circle of friends regularly place in the top 5. They're figuring it out

This summer she won the CSI BPCR Silhouette Scope Match in Bethune. Shot up 2 classes. She's getting it figured out, maybe I should have told her to throw a couple into the berm :roll:

It's an optical advantage over iron sights

Scoped shooters are getting it figured out.

Does she NEED to use a scope to be able to shoot, NOOOO, her eyes are perfect!!!! It's an optical advantage over iron sights, they have 6x magnification, a cross hair, mil-dots, you can get such a finer hold with a cross hair, I can move her around anywhere I need to on the target because of that cross hair.

She told me one day that if she does her job like she's supposed to, and we don't screw up the wind call, "I can't hardly miss dad".
When we attend a long range Buffalo Match and I tell the girls to get their stuff ready the FIRST thing she asks me, "Dad where's my scope", not where's my gun, where's my scope. Besides, I think she enjoys shooting against the boys :wink:

Scoped shooters are figuring it out. It's an optical advantage.

Separate scopes from irons, it's a no brainer.

BTW, recognize the scoped shooters with plaques for 1st, 2nd and 3rd, not doing so is disrespectful to those that spend the money, for the equipment and pay entry fees just like everyone else. It's not like FRPC is "scraping by"

It'll pay for itself, I know, I run matches around here. 3 plaques at $20/plaque, $60, 12 scoped rifle entries, at $25/entry, $300 bucks, even your board members can figure that out, though I wonder often. So, if it's not the cost of the plaques that are prohibitive, then it makes me wonder if the reason is, they don't want to.
Anyone with an "That's good enough attitude", or "We don't need to", has an attitude that's "Not good enough", run them off.

(recognize the scoped shooters with plaques for 1st, 2nd and 3rd, not doing so is disrespectful to those that spend the money, for the equipment and pay entry fees just like everyone else).

Brian, you've got a winner here, a format that we all love AND it's the Buz Coker Memorial :D , the past & ICONIC Match Director of the LARGEST BUFFALO RIFLE SHOOT THAT WILL EVER BE HELD, IN THE WORLD, PERIOD!

Have the match again & again & again, the girls and I already have this one as a take the time to go to, we're not the only one's, either.
Don't worry & don't be surprised to have 60+ shooters show up, because it's the Buz Coker Memorial :D why wouldn't it be successful

If "The Board" won't go for it, give me a call, I'll sponsor the scope & Match Winner plaques myself, just let me know what you want them to look like
MENS (3)
WOMENS (3)
SCOPE (3)
MATCH WINNER (1)
I just offered to sponsor 40% of your plaque cost
Go ask the bank in town to sponsor 3 & a parts store to sponsor 3, problem solved, cost to Forsyth Rifle & Pistol Club, $0. As a matter of fact, sell those sponsorship's for a $100 bill & make $80 for the club. Again, it's not like the FRPC is starving
Engrave the sponsor on the plaque, the front of the plaque, announce the sponsor when you hand them out

The reason Cody is successful, he understands how to put smiles on shooters faces & those around that shooter & if he wants to do something different at his matches, the only one he argues with on whether or not to do it is when he looks in the mirror

I'm lucky, Dale, & I or Mark & I chew the fat on things.

Mark & I tried something different at one of our matches, it lasted exactly, that match, sounded good when we talked about it, not so good in the real world

Brian, this is a going to be a great match,............... annually :D
Present it as,
This is the date
this is the time
this is the entry
this is the format
these are the classes
these are the plaques &
BTW, take it or leave it, don't take no for an answer

Brian, if you build it, we will come :wink: ...............unless you don't put scopes into their own class, then maybe not, no use me showing up with my irons to shoot against shooters with 6x magnification...............& a crosshair ...............& mil-dots :wink:
After a while your shoot would become more & more scope heavy, would you blame them, would you :?:
I'd have to buy another scope, someone else is always in possession of mine :mrgreen: too many rifles, not enough scopes, what a problem to have :lol:
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semtav
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Re: Trends in Gong Matches

Post by semtav »

Holy Smokes Batman !!! That's the kind of feedback I like to see. Can't address everything online, but points well taken.
semtav
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Re: Trends in Gong Matches

Post by semtav »

mike herth wrote:Are there disadvantages to using Blackhorn, other than BP only matches? .
I haven't seen any. My best score at the long range match was with Blackhorn paperpatched in a Shiloh 45-70.
Kenny Wasserburger
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Re: Trends in Gong Matches

Post by Kenny Wasserburger »

Shadow 4

Very well done, a better post I haven't read in sometime. Thought provoking and helpful, and insightful reasoning. Plus I agree 100%.

Very well done, on topic, and moved the conversation back to the topic, nothing like the asshole comment that somehow a industrial oilpatch accident, has any damm thing in common with unsafe firearms handling at a Gong Match. :?
Oh well that Dip Shit isn't welcome at several matches I attend each year, and for good reason.

Kenny Wasserbuger
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charlie young
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Re: Trends in Gong Matches

Post by charlie young »

Good Lord Brian H. I haven't read that much at one time for a long time!! :D Good post, you must be done reffing football for the season and had a little time. 2 matches I really like and have time for, is the Big Gun/Little Gun and the Coker Memorial is the other.

Again good post,
Charlie
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