Putting the chop to Argentine .43 Spanish

[Todd Birch]

I want some feedback.....

Looking at my three bander Argentine Rolling Block in .43 Spanish, I've been considering a 'chop job'.

I don't mean taking a hacksaw to it, but getting the barrel cut back to 30" and recrowned, a new front sight and ordering wood from Treebone or Lonestar.

Ordering a new RB from either Remington or Lonestar is out of the question. By the time it's landed in Canada, the price is about double after the exchange, taxes and duty.

I realize this will desecrate an antique, but at least the wood and ramrod will be available to someone.

Clarence has suggested to me that replacing the trigger spring will go a long way in reducing pull weight. Anyone else had experience lightening the trigger pull of a RB?

Todd

"Become your own hero." Dr. George Sheehan MD

[JAGG]

T B ! For now just get the new wood and leave the barrel alone ! Wait and see how it shoots ! I have a 35 inch barrel on one of mine and i would like it better if it was 36inch ! JAGG

[Todd Birch]

Hey Jagg

The rifle is in the hands of a 'smith right now to get bobbed back to 30".

It shot quite well with the issue barrel length (2 3/4" at 100 yds) but unless I wiped between rounds, there was a slight lead build up in the last few inches near the muzzle.

This isn't the first rifle I've had or known of with the same problem. A bullet can only carry so much lube. A friend's '75 .45-70 with a 28" tube doesn't lead. In another rifle with a 32" barrel, the same load starts to lead after a few rounds.

There seems to be a point where barrel length ceases to offer any advantage and becomes a liability and detrimental to performance.

I expect the the rifle will shoot even better with the new crown and lightened trigger pull and lightened hammer spring.

Todd

[Ken Hartlein]

Croft Barker in his book on the .43 spanish says to take the action apart and coat everything with a good quality grease, then sprinkle the grease with pure graphite. Then when you put it all back together don't tighten the trigger spring screw down all the way. Another .43 shooter told me to use a small washer under the spring to raise it up just a bit, it helped his a lot!! These aren't my ideals, they were told to me by other guys that are shooting the .43 RBs. I tried the grease deal and it did help.

[Todd Birch]

Hey Ken

Thanks for the feed back.

Yes, the old 'washer under the screw' trick works. Many CAS shooters resort to the use of a leather washer on Colt SAAs - trigger job on the cheap. Until the screw loosens as the leather compresses.....

The idea of a grease smeared, graphite coated action on a hunting rifle under dusty or frigid conditions holds no appeal for me. I tried that once on a Mauser .30-'06 and I'm here to tell you that you could watch the striker fall on a frosty November morning. Now I degrease under the same conditions.

I was just reading a letter in Steve Garbe's BPCN re: barrel length on British BP Express rifles. The norm was 28". The other areas where they differed from contemporary American sporting rifles were rate of twist (1 in 20" to 1 in 36"), stock dimensions and length of pull.
The British rifles were designed to be comfortable shooting from off hand with comparatively light bullets at what was then high velocity.

For example - the .450-3 1/4" BPE cartridge was loaded with 120 grains of Curtis & Harvey's No. 6 behind a 270 grain copper tube bullet achieveing a velocity of 1,975 fps. There were also lead and paper patched loadings.

An American hunter, Col. William D. Pickett, used 110 grains of the same powder with a 340 grain bullet to achieve 1,830 fps. in his Sharps rifle.

It appears to be an 'apples and oranges' comparison between what works on the target range and what one wants in the field.

Todd

[Jim Watson]

A friend of mine has a .450 BPE. I think the makers calibrated the weight of express rifles to their calibre and load to reach a level of recoil reasonable for one or two pairs. At least that is about all *I* am good for with that rifle.

[KHR]

Hi todd
if you care to try lubricating your lock action then try molyslide grease. You can get it from Sinclair http://www.sinclairintl.com/cgi-bin/cat ... type=store this grease is extremely slippery and cold seems to not affect it. I use it on all of my guns, and it seems to smooth and even lighten an action.

keith

[Ken Hartlein]

The grease I was referring to is synthetic and I would worry a lot more about the heavy trigger pull than I would about dust in the grease. The grease I use is Amsoil and it is good down to much colder than I would hunt in. After all, you can take it apart and clean it and get the dust out and put new grease in. Since Croft Barker has shot one of these things about a million times I would guess he knows what he's talking about, and the grease/graphite really helped mine.

[JAGG]

TB ! You needed a better bullet or a better bullet lube for the long barrels ! Do you think that they would make a barrel so long that it would foul or lead for their Armies ? JAGG

[Todd Birch]

Hey JAGG

I do know that the armies of the world regarded long barrels as essential for bayonet fighting, ballistic requirements notwithstanding.

This propensity lasted well into the smokeless era until it became apparent that past a certain point, there was nothing to be gained by long barrels other than muzzle steadiness and increased sight radius.
When armies stopped facing each other in seried ranks, barrel lengths shortened considerably. Accuracy was undiminished and in most cases enhanced.

Muzzle steadiness can be achieved with a shorter, stiffer barrel configuration and this technique works quite well in the benchrest game.
I have read several tests where barrels were cut back and velocities recorded. There is a point of limited gains and diminishing returns in the exercise.

I have had personal experience with cast bullet loads that shot well in my S&W 4" M66 .357 causing leading in a 6" Colt Python. The velocities were also comparable. "Apples and oranges"? Perhaps, but enough to warrant investigation.

Historically, there was a never ending search for serviceable bullet lubes to reduce or prevent bore fouling. The Brits made extensive use of beeswax, tallow and various combinations of both. Granted, their powders were superior in may respects to modern blackpowders but bore fouling remained a serious concern right up to the advent of smokeless propellants.

We know that there was wide latitude of opinions amongst turn of the century riflemen, notably the "Schuetzen" discipline, and many of their records remain unbroken. Some were advocates of bore wiping between shots or strings and others not.
A good read on the topic of bullet lubes can be found in "The Breech-Loading Single Shot Rifle" by Ned Roberts and Ken Waters. It was a never ending search.
Many of the bullet lubes mentioned contained "sperm oil", not a readily available commodity on today's market. Perhaps Steve Garbe's SPG has this as a secret ingredient.

Regards, Todd

[Todd Birch]

Hey Jagg

Came acros some interesting data on barrel lengths in "The Breech-Loading Single Shot Rifle".

Bear in mind we are discussing offhand "Schuetzen" rifles, not long range buffalo blasters and target rifles.

"G.F. Wentworth shot a .32-35 Maynard rifle weighing 9 pounds with a 28" barrel".

"Mr. O.M. Jewell purchased a Maynard rifle with 29" barrel of .40 calibre..."

"Mr. White first used a Sharps .40 calibre rifle with a 26" barrel..."

"Mr. E.F. Richardson first used a 30" barrel with which he made magnificant scores, but in a short time he cut off 2" from the barrel, and still later another 2" was taken off, leaving it 26" in length, and he continued to make the same high scores with the shorter barrel.

He states that the shorter barrel suits him best in holding and he never could see but what the shorter barrel did as fine shooting as the longer one.
It is worthy of note that all his best shooting, highest scores made, was done with the 26" barrel."

A check in Steve Garbe's Ballard Rifle catalogue shows standard barrel length to be 30". The exceptions are the No. 7 Long Range at 32-34" and the Gallery Models as short as 24-26".

So why the modern obsession with long barrels?

Todd

[JAGG]

T B ! It was very simple ! If you left the barrel at it's originial length and it shot fine , then you only had to replace the originial wood at a latter date to keep it as an original antque which would have increased in Value ! JAGG

[Todd Birch]

Yes JAGG, I agree.

However, I wasn't happy with the rifle as it was, there isn't a great shortage of them at the present and it gives me the RB hunting rifle I could not afford otherwise.

The current list of such a rifle from Lonestar is around $1500 US. Landed in Canada, I can double that in Canadian dollars. Would you do it?

The .43 Spanish calibre and date of manufacture make the rifle exempt registration in Canada. A rifle from Lonestar would require registration as it is not "antique" according to the Canadian Firearms Act, i.e. pre-1898.

This way I get to thumb my nose at any over zealous Conservation Officer or RCMP Officer at game checks. That alone makes the project worthwhile.

Todd

[JAGG]

T B ! I wouldn't count on that with the Game or Police officers ! They might ask you to prove that what you have is an Antque etc.. It depends on their quota and Politics ! Good luck JAGG

[Todd Birch]

Not a problem Jagg.....

The date is stamped right on the barrel. The Crown hates to lose in court and it looks bad on a cop's record to lay a frivolous charge.

The rifle is on it's way back from the 'smith with the barrel cut back to a mere 30", new front sight installed and a 1 1/2# trigger pull!

This guy does target rifles for the guys that shoot at Bisley and worked some of his magic. He did tell me that he used a high tech moly-lube of some type as was recommended by someone on the forum and replaced the trigger spring as well.

Can't wait to see the results.....

Todd