45-110 - Short Range Help Needed

rcasto · Post by **rcasto** » Wed May 12, 2004 9:32 pm

After months of pulling my hair out trying to get my Shiloh 45-110 to shoot a decent group at 100yds, I talked to the fine folks at Buffalo Arms today while placing an order. I was educated to the fact that this cartridge may not be stabilizing at this short of range. I currently load a 535gr Lyman postell over 105g Goex Fg with a .060 wad. My cast bullets I would think are ok because my Shiloh 45-70 will group extremely tight with this bullet at 100yds.

About the best I can get is about 4 -5 inches at 100yds. One might suggest that I shoot it at 300yds and as I am fortunate enough to be able to shoot in my front yard, it would be difficult to set up a 300 yard range safely. Also, I want an accurate hunting load for ranges of 100 - 150 yards or less.

How do I go about getting this rifle to shoot moa at short range?
Any load suggestions would be appreciated.

Also, for those of you who shoot at long range, what kind of group would you expect at 100yds with your long range loadings? I only ask because I wonder if some of my loads would be good at long range. Basically, how unstable can this cartridge be at short range and still provide moa or close groups at 500+ yds?

Thanks for your help.

A.Bruiser · Post by **A.Bruiser** » Wed May 12, 2004 10:27 pm

rcasto,

From my Highpower experiance, if a bullet isn't stable at 100yds. it won't be farther on. You can tell from the way the bullet goes though the target if it's stable or not.

A.Bruiser

Ken Hartlein · Post by **Ken Hartlein** » Wed May 12, 2004 10:53 pm

Sir Rcasto, have you miked your bullets to make sure they are the perfect size for your barrel?? Also is your case length exactely right?? What tin:lead are you using?? Are you giving a good 7 or 8 puffs on the ol blow tube between shots?? Sounds like to me you are having fouling problems maybe.

deerhuntsheatmeup · Post by **deerhuntsheatmeup** » Thu May 13, 2004 6:17 am

Abruiser, I disagree, this is why. At the last mid-range match I was at, I was scoring my shooting pardner, working the pits , and his load madde good holes ayt 200 yards, slight keyholes at 300 yards, and back to perfect holes at 600 yards. We shoot 20 shot relays with 4 sighters from each distance and all info was consistent. The slow moving bullets we shoot have to deal with the speed of sound and other influences that the HP boys don't have to contend with. I told my pardner of this discovery and he is now looking to modify his load for 300 yards. FWIW, YMMV Later, David Barfield

RMulhern · Post by **RMulhern** » Thu May 13, 2004 7:40 am

A. Bruiser

Forget...what you think you know about HP here! It don't apply! Totally different dog!

8iowa · Post by **8iowa** » Thu May 13, 2004 8:17 am

Ken has good comments here. There are about a zillion factors that can contribute to unsatisfactory groups, and I'm convinced that most of them are more closely associated with powder fouling, lead alloy mixture, bullet diameter & base, and cartridge loading techniques. Range conditions and lack of proper bench rest equipment can also adversly affect results. These are the most important factors to concentrate on, and there is certainly a lot of knowledgeable assistance on this board.

This is not to say that transonic effects do not enter into the picture. Most of the time our bullets leave the muzzle at supersonic speeds and then as the velocity drops down to around 1100 fps the shock wave begins to colapse. Pilots can tell us that the airplane is "buffeted" during this transition. If your target is placed at just the right place the effects of this disturbance might be noticeable. However, I wouldn't be inclined to say that it would account for a group spread of 4 to 5 inches. Only a well equipped lab would be able to accurately measure this transonic "wobble". High power shooters don't have to be concerned. Their bullets stay supersonic through the 1000 yard marker.

rcasto · Post by **rcasto** » Thu May 13, 2004 9:02 am

As far as fouling, I use Goex Fg and it is very clean in both of my 45-110s (30 in #3 Sporter & 34 in LRE), I use SPG lube and have the lube star present on my muzzle. I use about 5 breaths with the blow tube per shot and clearly see good moisture thru-out my bore and muzzle.

I have not miked the bores but use a .458 Lyman bullet and .458 sizer as this is what I was told to use in a Shiloh. This same bullet groups very well in my 45-70.

I use the Buffalo Arms compression die and expander. Lyman taper crimp just enough to make the case mouth straight.

Any help is appreciated and will prevent me from going bald!

Ken Hartlein · Post by **Ken Hartlein** » Thu May 13, 2004 10:10 am

How about checking your brass length?? When you're shooting cast bullets a case that is too short will cause you problems. You didn't say what melt you're using but in that big gun I would think either 1:20 or 1:30 would be fine. The real 45-110 expert here is Kenny W., maybe he'll see this post and comment for you. I always shoot new brass a couple of times before I trim it, otherwise it will end up too short, I know, been there done that!!! ha ha.

KHR · Post by **KHR** » Thu May 13, 2004 10:38 am

rcastro,
I'm a real beginer when it comes to 45/110 but many of the posts on the 45/110 mention case annealing, perhaps do a search on this topic and this might help. Here is one discussion: http://shilohrifle.com/forums/viewtopic ... +annealing
this might help...

keith

rcasto · Post by **rcasto** » Thu May 13, 2004 11:37 am

Ken Hartlein: My brass is 2.865. I'm using the 30-1 from Buffalo Arms. My bullets weighed out at 536.5 +- .4

I was using BA cases, but recently bought some Norma basic. I FL sized them for an accurate trim and shot 10 in order to fire form - at least they stayed within an 8 1/2 X 11 sheet of paper! I have now used a Lyman neck size die on these 10 but have not been able to shoot them yet.

Post by **Kirk** » Thu May 13, 2004 2:13 pm

Hi sir, check this stuff out and maybe call me.

#1- primer
#2- case neck tension
#3- bullet to case runout
#4- neck hardness
#5- change lube
#6- seating depth
We will find out what it needs, Thanks Kirk (406) 932-4266
Look forward to hearing from you.

Ken Hartlein · Post by **Ken Hartlein** » Thu May 13, 2004 3:00 pm

Is your group verticle, horizontal or round?? It sounds to me like you have everything just right!! I bet Kirk can help you.

A.Bruiser · Post by **A.Bruiser** » Thu May 13, 2004 3:59 pm

Sharpsman,

Why wouldn't it apply? Loading techneques are basic and ballistics are basic. The laws of nature are going to be the same no matter what.

A.Bruiser

rcasto · Post by **rcasto** » Thu May 13, 2004 4:01 pm

http://www.castohealthcare.com/rcasto/DSCN0098.JPG

The above is a link to an ugly group 8" high by 3" wide. 100yd range

Norma Brass - first load After fireforming.
Lyman Neck Size
WLR Primer
Buffalo Arms Expander - No noticeable bell - Can hand seat bullet about
1/3 to 1/2 way.
105 gr Goex Fg
.060 wad from Buffalo Arms
Buffalo Arms Compression Die
Runout 2 at .002 and 7 at .001 - .0015
No crimp used
Chambered like a glove
Good lube star
Humid day - 5 breaths per round
Moisture verified throughout barrel throughout session
Very little fouling

30 in Shiloh #3 45-110
Front sight - factory blade
Rear sight - Riflesmith Mid Tang with windage

rcasto · Post by **rcasto** » Thu May 13, 2004 4:05 pm

Forgot to add:
535gr Lyman Postell cast with 30-1 at 536gr.
SPG Lube - Saeco 458 sizer
Case length 2.865
Seated mid way on the highest band - no lube showing

Shiloh Rifle Forums

45-110 - Short Range Help Needed

45-110 - Short Range Help Needed

abruiser

Short Range Help