"Hot Rodding BP Cartridges"

[Todd Birch]

I'm always amused when shooters talk about using heavier bullets that require faster twists, etc., out of traditional BP cartridges rifles.

This "hot rodding" is the equivalent of "improving" standard calibres by blowing out the shoulder for more powder room instead of stepping up to a larger capacity case. It may be fun, but is it necessary or just re-inventing the wheel?

In one of his "Crank's Corner" columns, Stever Garbe talks about this trend as it applies to the .38-55. His comments may apply to other calibres as well:

"The biggest mistake one can make is trying to turn a .38 into a .40. By this I mean shooting a heavier bullet in a radically tighter twist. When one does this, he totally eliminates the "shootability" by adding more recoil and more torque.
One would be better off staying with a .40 calibre rifle than trying to "hot rod" a .38-55. I've noticed that twists much faster than 14" are noticeably harder to hang onto and are consequently are more difficult to shoot consistently.
Another negative about faster twists is that they tend to magnify imperfections and voids in cast bullets."

Aside from any benefits that may or may not result from such "hot rodding", the very nature and character of the original BP cartridge is being altered. Some things are best left alone and enjoyed for what they are.
There are enough variants and wildcats out there without coming up with more. Barrel makers and custom mould makers may not agree with this philosophy.

I guess I'm entering an ethical zone here, but when we start installing mercury recoil absorbing devices and need to wear padded 'training bras' to shoot BP rifles, we seem to be losing something.

Todd

[IronSight]

Todd,
In addition to a potentioal increase in barrel torque and recoil there's also the added possibility of increased fouling. My experience with muzzleloaders sorta confirms it. I have 7 muzzleloaders with varying twists. 3 with 1:48 and the rest around 1:60 to 1:70. All the slower twists foul noticeably less. Can't say how much of this would apply to to BPCRs.

[A.Bruiser]

Todd Birch,

I'm not going down that road of smaller calibre's, fast twist and heavy bullet's. When you said wearing about a padded bra to shoot was kind of funny. High power guy's wear straight jackets and that jacket has a padded shoulder. OK, see the similarity's. Heavy recoiling rifles will take it's toll on the old shoulder and just addle the brain a little, when 100 or more shot's are fired in a day. Now multiply that by three or four days of shooting and it adds up.

A.Bruiser

[Todd Birch]

Hey Bruiser

I confess to wearing a "training bra" myself for sessions at the bench behind steel butt plates. My hat is off to anyone who can endure the pounding without wearing one.
I have come away with a "recoil headache" at times from bench sessions, but I've had the same experience shooting trap loads out of my Model 12 Winchester with a recoil pad after 50-75 rounds.
I've read that it is possible for shooters of heavy recoiling rifles to suffer detached retinas. That strikes me as a ridiculous price to pay.

The point of my post was about turning a BP cartridge into something it wasn't intended to be - a BP magnum "hot rodded" to the nth degree. If the cartridge doesn't have the potential you're after, shoot another.

If one is playing with BPC rifles from the last century, it seems consistent to retain the originality of the cartridge as designed and commonly used in the era.

Todd

[Josh A.]

Surely you realize that most of the BPCR calibers around were built to make bigger go faster. Most of the guys that are competitive are shooting bullets that are heavy for caliber. There are significant gains to be had with bullets that are heavy for caliber, including better BC and a cleaner powder burn. The classic 500gr. Govt. 45-70 bullet is all bet dead in silhouette and never was mcuh use in LR. Everyone has gone to 525gr+, some to 570gr.

If you want to shoot the classic 45-70 trapdoor carbine load then have at it. If you want to be competitive in silhouette or LR you'd better show up with a cartridge and load that is significantly more "hotrodded". Either way why don't shoot what you would like and leave the rest of us the hell alone.

Josh

[JAGG]

T B ! To each his own ! There is a lot of changing twists in the .40 and under cal. as they were all shot with slow twists and light bullets ! I did notice that when i ran into shooters on the range and couldn't figure out how they were shooting 375 to 400 gr bullets in a 40/65 win. cal. which was rifled to shoot 260gr bullets ! But they want the BC of a smallar bullet with less recoil to knock over those metal thingies ! In the end i think there is a point of deminishing returns that will be reached and they will be right back where they started ! Equal and opposite motion etc. ! JAGG

[Todd Birch]

Hey Josh

I'm going to dignify your post with a reasoned response. More than it deserves, but I'll try.

The only cartridge I'm aware of in the BPCR game that was "wild catted" or "hot rodded" is the .40-70 (.40 -2.1") Government. And that had to be allowed with some reservation as not being an authentic cartridge. It was just a cost effective way of creating a competitive .40 calibre by running .45-70 brass through a .40 bottleneck die.

A while back, someone posted the rules for International Long range BP shooting and I took a tongue in cheek shot at them. I'm not sure, but I think they might have some restrictions as to eligible calibres with historical authenticity being high on the list. The intention being to preserve the integrity of the sport.

The fact that a lot of modern BP rifles are barrelled with rates of twist that handle non-historic bullet weights is neither right or wrong if it is done within the framework of the rules. What it does is establish the base line for winning at the expense of historical authenticity.

My comments were an observation of the current trend, not an attempt to gore your ox, but obviously that is what I did.

My dictionary defines "forum" thusly: "a place of assembly for public discussion." Kind of a free speech thing. That means points of view that differ from or challenge yours are valid.

Using your own by-line quote" The Sharps we use for killing buffalo need NO (sic) improvement, as they are a perfect gun."

Just not perfect enough for the silhouette game. Thanks for supporting my argument.

Todd

[Josh A.]

As I recall that comment by Garbe, he was suggesting some bullet caliber parameters that were dead ends. I seem to remember that he was trying to help some of the aspiring silhouette shooters avoid some pitfalls. Don't remember anything he said about some fictional "historical accuracy" slant.

So why don't you run down your silhouette and long range "historically accurate" rifles with which you are competing? I assume you are acitvely competing since you have such a strong opinion about what should be allowed. Don't forget your twist rates and bullet designs.

I also assume that you know that Shiloh has changed the twists (faster) of many of their barrels to better stabilize the longer bullets in use now. The original Sharps rifle company introduced cartridge after cartridge that held more powder for both the buffalo and target ranges. The 44-90 probably being the most popular Sharps buffalo caliber up through the 1878 being chambered in 45-110 for long range matches. Many of the 1870's-1880's cartridges were wildcatted to shoot "bigger, faster". The guys now days are only following in that same tradition of knowledge and invention.

J

[Todd Birch]

So it would appear that the historic Sharps for killing buffalo was not perfect after all, but in a constant state of evolution to this day, the very point I was trying to make.

Better change your by-line.

If you'll reread my post, I wasn't putting words in Garbe's mouth. My comments about historical authenticity were applied to international long range shooting.

Here's another quote from Garbe you can pick holes in:

"Black powder competition is really like Model T racing; allow Corvettes to participate and you have somewhat diminished the original purpose of the race."

He was referring to the use of black powder substitutes that came on line after Pyrodex was admitted. The same rationale could be applied to the "hot rodding" of traditional black powder cartridges.

By increasing the bullet weight and rate of twist, you effectively have a cartridge that matches the original in head stamp only. Again, nothing wrong with that.

Lets just not kid ourselves as to what it is we are doing in the process.

Todd

[A.Bruiser]

Todd Birch,

I don't think you can call BPCR traditional. The Creedmoor match you could may get an arguement. Didn't the Americans use breach loaders and the other teams muzzle loaders.? What the subsiquent matchs, didn't the Americans use different rifles and calibre's? I don't know about the other countrys. So what would be considered traditional? Those old matches had changes for everyone wouldn't you think. Part of what competition is, is change and one upman ship. Need for rules, HUMMMMMMMmmmmmmm, makes me wonder/

A.Bruiser

[Josh A.]

Todd, you never did give us the run down on the rifles you will be campaigning this year. Just how "historically accurate" are they. You are shooting and competing, aren't you? Or are you on the porch barking at those that do?

You know the Quigley and KW's shoot are about to be going on right down the road from you. Why don't you go over there and show some of those boys how a rifle with the right bullets and twist shoots?

J

[loophole]

Todd,

You've identified a problem which is, I think, rooted in human nature--the conflict between those of us who love firearms per se and those who love to win matches.

A few years ago I decided to ride a motorcycle on a racetrack; to get my competition license I had to take a course taught by an experienced racer. The first thing we learned is that a racer sees a motorcycle merely as a disposable tool used to win races--in other words, a love of the bike for its own sake is something winners cannot afford.

The same is true of firearms. Look at the origins of any type of competion and notice how far from those roots the guns get after a few years.

High power competion is rooted in the need for marksmanship among infantrymen, but the AR-15, match ammo, sling and shooting jacket which wins matches would be useless on a battlefield. IPSC started out to test practical self defense skills with a handgun, and a few years later matches were being won with "race guns", optical sights and other gear which would look ridiculous and get you killed in real life.

I've carefully examined every available photo of buffalo hunters, and read every available account of their rifles and equiptment, and I've found no mention of blow tubes, spotting scopes, buffalo neatly arranged at known ranges, plastic wads, cross sticks used from the prone position....

Those who become committed to winning matches are to be admired for their commitment, hard work, and shooting skills, but don't expect anyone who really wants to win to shoot an historically accurate rifle and load under conditions which actually recreate those of 1873.

--------------------------

If at first you don't seceed, try. try again.

[Todd Birch]

Hey Loophole

You've fully grasped and expressed the point I was trying to get across that others have either chosen to ignore or are incapable of grasping.

BPCR has become a highly refined shooting sport only remotely connected to it's historical roots through the external appearance of the rifles. Men like Steve Garbe have fought hard to keep the sport relatively 'clean' by opposing the use of gas check bullets and duplex loading.

I was one of the founders of IPSC shooting in Canada at the time when it was still "Combat Shooting". In fact, we took it to the US Pacific Northwest.
I watched the devolution of the sport from any pretext at practicality to what it is today.
I quit rather than go the optical sighted race gun route.

The same thing happened in Cowboy Action Shooting. The attitude there was "If John Wayne would use it, its OK." It was the world of .44s and .45s with only the ladies shooting .357 Marlins and Rugers.
The purest and amongst the best were the BP shooters who couldn't fudge on their loads.

Then it became more important to win and the switch was on to wimp loads in .357 for rifle and pistol, short stroke lever guns, single loading '97s, etc. It became IPSC in cowboy clothes. Any semblance of historical tradition or authenticity of guns and ammo was lost.

Again, I stress...this is fine if the majority accept it as what they want of the sport. It amuses me to watch the reaction to this reality check when sacred cows are gored. Rational, analytical thinking then becomes a threat and people get defensive.

Regards, Todd

[Josh A.]

Josh

Like I said in my response to Loophole, you are probably one of those
incapable of grasping the concept he so eloquently expressed.

I have no intentions of getting into a pissing contest with you on the forum
or enter into the forum genre of "mine's bigger and better than yours and
costs more. And further more, I know more about this and any other topic
than you do or ever will."

It is in my nature to have a hard, critical look at the things I do and get
involved in. At this point in my life, I have few if any, remaining
illusions about who I am and what motivates me.
This leaves me unwilling to suffer fools gladly, well or for long. I leave
them to happily stew in their own juice.

At this stage of my life, I choose not to get deeply involved in any
competitive shooting sport for the reasons I've tried to outline in my posts
on the forum. I've gone that route in black powder ML shooting where I was
the president of the national body, IPSC where I was the provincial director
and more recently, Cowboy Action Shooting until it became apparent that
there were more horses asses than horses in that sport.

For a while I was interested in following the BPCR game until a friend went
to Raton and I realized from talking to him that exactly the same attitude
prevailed there as well.

If it would please you, I'll happily list the make and model of the five
.45-70 rifles of three action types that I own and other BPCRs in other
calibres as well. I don't regard it as a credential to list these under my
name.

Todd
_____________________________________________________________

Geez, Todd if you have such a huge amount of knowledge in this area and all others don't hide it in my e-mail, put it out where everyone can see it. Boy we ain't one at a timing here, we're MASS COMMUNICATIN'!

I love that line.

I had you pegged for a porch puppy, you shore got strong opinions about BPCR competition for someone who doesn't compete.

Frankly, NRA silhouette and the people shooting it have done a lot to generate interest and dollars for everyone from black powder companies to rifle outfits. Long range and schuetzen are making a comeback. There are more rifles, equipment and knowledge available right now than was available during the 1880's, I'd wager. Businesses are prospering, new shooters coming in, ranges are filled again. These are good things. Garbe and others have done a huge amount of work in bringing lots of people to the sport. But you better not kid yourself, Garbe and the others are competitors that want to win. Just like the rest of us. So I guess you can see why it might make somebody mad when a NON COMPETITOR goes to yappin' about what is traditional, acceptable or even good for the sport. Frankly, you're probably not a very good judge when deciding what is good for a sport since you seem to think all the shooting disciplines are full of "horse's asses". Sounds like everyone is a horse's rear, except you? Yeah, right. Kind of arrogant of you don't you think? I hate it that you don't "suffer fools, etc." either, beginning to sound like you spend all of your time with one.

So in the words of a great philosopher (my 6 year old nephew) "gotta go, gotta kill something, got any bullets left?".

J

[A.Bruiser]

Todd Birch,

I'm in Josh A. Corner on this, even though he's a texasan.

You went and called a bunch of guy's hores ass's and now it looks like you've joined, I would more like say you are a jackass instead. My take on you right now is, your here to rile up a bunch of guys and then sit back an laugh at all the fire works you started. Hope those remarks didn't pucker your butt to much, not.

WHAT IS SO TRADITIONAL ABOUT BPCR? BPCR has no tradition, the game was started so Black Powder cartridge single shot rifles could be used for silhouette, instead of High-Power rifles, it's that simple.

A.Bruiser