"Hot Rodding BP Cartridges"

[Todd Birch]

Josh/Bruiser
Gentlemen:

Not wanting to get into a pissing contest with Josh in a public forum, I sent him a private email. He saw fit to air it publicly. That tells me something of his nature and character.
It also speaks volumes in support of my argument that there is little historical relevance to the sport of BPCR, the original point of the discussion. It has evolved into what it is - a high tech shooting sport whose roots lie in the historic BP rifles of the buffalo era.

Instead of a reasoned debate between mature individuals, the discussion degenerated into public name calling and a breach of confidence. I assure you that had I heard from Josh privately, we would have dealt with our differences out of the public eye.

My comment about there being more horses's asses than horses was confined to the sport of cowboy action shooting, something I shared with SASS in a letter they published. They stopped short of publishing that remark, but agreed with it in principle as a board, with some amusement.
Their Territorial Governors meetings rival those of the NRA BPCR board for ego and acrimony.

It is difficult to have a reasoned, rational discussion with individuals who come unarmed into a battle of wits and lacking the necessary reading/debating skills, resort to inflammatory and vitriolic language and personal attacks to defend their points of view.

Obviously, this forum is the domain of the BPCR shooter only. I was unaware of that. It ought to be clarified on the home page.

Readers who haven't been sickened by this exchange will be able to discern the difference in tone, intellect and intent of the protagonists.

The sport of BPCR deserves better spokesmen.

Todd

[gmartin]

Enthusiasts,
A reasonable proposition. I remember reading in SHOOTING BUFFALO RIFLES by Mike Venturino, that he believed for hunting purposes a military stlyle rifle to be an excellent BPCR choice. He lamented the fact that there is no catogory in BPCR competion for just such rifles. So let there be! The rules would be rather simple. Any repica or original military rifle of a period such as 1860-90, single shot, replica or original military OPEN sights, scopes and peep types excluded. Military period calibers only of black powder. (1890 may be too late thus). One may tweak a cartridges capability, but in this case a large part of ones score would be due to inate shooting skills.
Why not? Gregg

[A.Bruiser]

Todd Birch,

As far as I'm concerned, you started this pissing contest and then turn it around and state that we started it and then go on to call us uneducated dweebs. Thats not name calling? You calling shooter's or whom ever horse's ass's in the SASS would lead me to believe you would think that of other shooters in other sports. You went on to say you'd never attend a BPCR silhouette match and believed those shooter to be horse's ass's also, just because your friend, who attended Raton, had something go wrong. And you'd never attend a match. How about going to a silhouette match and seeing for your self. Taking someone else's bad mouthing of an event you don't attend leads me to believe your pretty narrow minded.

By the way I don't care what you think of me. I still think you are just trying to goard guys into fights.

A.Bruiser

[Todd Birch]

Bruiser

The exchange we have been indulging in is called polemics. If I have to define that term for you, I have indeed been wasting my time. It presupposes that the protagonists are on an equal footing and up to the challenge of the exercise.
If you choose to refer to yourself and others as "uneducated dweebs", so be it. I accept your self description.

Any time I think that you or anyone is a horse's ass or any other part of the equine anatomy, I'll tell you straight up. I'd rather not bad mouth horses unnecessarily.

I never at any time said I would not attend a BPCR match. If I ever do, I am forewarned as to what to expect. Nothing "happened to my friend" at Raton as you intimate; he was simply witness to an incident that resulted in the competitor being disqualified and told to leave the range.

In future exchanges, I shall restrict myself to monosyllabic terminology (oops...I blew that one already, didn't I?) to make it easier for you to understand what it is I actually say.

I'm happy to hear that you don't care about my opinion of you. There is no reason why you ought to. The feeling is mutual, I assure you.

Todd

[A.Bruiser]

Todd Birch,

I used that term because thats what you've been implying. We're not as you say, "indulging in POLEMICS" because you don't know what your talking about when it comes to talking BPCR Silhouette, Long range, because you keep saying, in alot of your post's, somebody told me this or that, which means to me, that your passing on second hand information and first hand knowledge of your own. So explain how we can be on equal footing if you've never done BPCR Silhouette first, meaning you have no experiance.

If your pal friend had witnessed an incident and that incident resulted in a competitor having to be disqualified and leave the range, it must have been something major and needed. Thats maybe a good thing, don't you think?

Now if my monosyllabic terminolgy offends you, tough shit, it's my way of keeping it so you can understand, you know KISS, "Keep It Simple Stupid"

By now you've noticed, I hope, that I've ignored you attempt a scarcasm. So if you would, in future post's, do use monosyllabic terminology that way we all can be on an equal footing, BWWWwwwwHAAaaaaaaaa, laughter you know, is good for the soul.

Arthur Boozer

[A.Bruiser]

Todd,

Please note, After the part were I said you are passing on second information and first hand, that should read passing on second hand information and NOT first hand. Thank you, Mono-syllables you know.

A.Bruiser

[JackInZoar]

a point to ponder ,,,, arguing on the internet is like running in the special olympics ,, even if you win , you're still retarded ,,, fight nice kids

[A.Bruiser]

JackInZoar,

Ah yes, good point. Now though,"RETARDED" has been changed to,"Challanged"..........Do like your Polyanna approach.

Just a side note, Polyanna was a Heroine in a novel.

A.Bruiser

[JackInZoar]

I dont deal with the "new english" ,, I'm not vertically challenged , I'm SHORT !!

[Todd Birch]

Hey Bruiser

"Polemics: noun, the art or practice of disputation; controversy; controversial writings."

It is actually regarded as a high form of debate and no topic is sacred. In fact, the best polemical discussions take on the most volatile and sensitive topics. That causes growth and development. Without it, you get intellectual stagnation and all pretext to free speech is lost.

The trick is to keep emotion and temperament out of it. Not easy to do, as we've been discovering.

Whether or not I choose to compete in the BPCR silhouette game isn't relative or germane to the discussion. I can't lay an egg either, but I am able to identify a rotten one when I find it.

I'm at a stage in life where what I do isn't as important to me as the people I do it with. I have nothing more to prove to myself, you or anyone else, having shot to the national and provincial levels in three shooting sports.
This was the extent of my ambitions and in all honesty, probably reflective of my abilities. At least I had no desire to go beyond those boundaries which is essential to any achievement. I wasn't willing or able to pay the dues to get there.

What we have been doing is expressing opinions based on our life experience and knowledge. Being right or wrong has nothing to do with it.

For what it's worth, I regret having been so cutting in my remarks by returning tit for tat. I didn't achieve what it was I wanted to accomplish, and I was injurious to your pride in the process.

In so doing, I disappointed myself.

Regards, Todd

[A.Bruiser]

Todd Birch,

I couldn't tell if you were being apologetic or if your post was another put down, I'm keeping simple.

I read Polemic to be, an aggressive attack on or refutation of the opinions or principles of another. An aggressive controversialist. Now you understand I don't have the command of the english langauge such as you seem to and that doesn't bother me a bit. I don't feel the need to talk like Steinbeck or that type, I don't have that type of ego. Debates, don't you just love them.

Not to burst your bubble, you did not injure my pride. You see I take these little chats as not being personal, I rather think these debates are hularious and it's a wonder what people can come with.

Now back to hot rodding and the BPCR Game if you will. If you care to.?

A.Bruiser

[A.Bruiser]

Todd Birch,

I'm going out on a limb here because some of my information is second hand. You mentioned S. Garbe and what he talked about in cranks corner, the 38/55. Mentioned also was faster twist barrels, recoil and I believe torque.

#1. Mr S.Garbe has a faster twist Krieger barrel on his 38/55, 14 twist, with a speed lock hammer, built on a High-Wall. S.Garbe is doing just as the old timers did to get a leg up on the competition and to win. Would you consider his comments in cranks corner about keeping BPCR traditional, what ever traditional is, speaking out the corner of his mouth?

#2. Recoil. Believe it or not the recoil isn't higher with fast twist 38's and a heavier bullets. The powder charge is lower, in the 40 grains department, so that cancels out recoil, even though the FPS is higher. I have shot a couple of 38's with 12 twist barrels and the bullet weight was 355G. and recoil wasn't anything at all.

#3. Torque, Those 38's I shot didn't have much torque at all. Goes back to less powder.You'd have to shoot one for yourself to feel it and the rifles were easy to hold onto.

Bottom line, would I shoot one in competition? No, as far as I'm concerned they will not keep up with a 40 or 45 and I don't care how good the shooter is.

A.Bruiser

[Todd Birch]

Bruiser

I was being magnaminous in my last post - gracious, if you will.

You are entitled to your definition of the word "polemics". There is nothing wrong with your command of the language in expressing and defending your viewpoint.

If you'll think about it, there was much thought stimulated by the exercise. Look at the posting you just made: the effects of twist on torque, recoil, etc. with regard to the .38-55.

I think you ought to put them into a letter to Garbe for publication in the BPCN. He loves this kind of input, even if it differs from his point of view.
That's what it's all about ; not name calling and insults.

Take care my friend. It's been a pleasure dukeing it out with you these past few days. I respect a man who stands on his principles.

Regards, Todd

[Josh A.]

Hey there Bruiser, Todd is being "magnaminous" in the same way that he would pet a puppy on the head after he's just kicked the crap out of it teaching it a lesson. The arrogant windbag thinks he's playing with us. In "Cnadja" they might call that silly, circular argument of his "indulgin in polemics", in Texas we got another name for it. Slatherin' slober on a hypocritical lie, don't make it hot apple pie!

Don't let ole Big Wind fool you, he's a lookin down his nose at you.

With that said, I'm gonna hafta let ole Big Wind go...for now. Arguing with this knuckehead on Kirk's forum may be getting in the way of Shiloh selling rifles.

Make no mistake, I want Shiloh in business 100 years from now; finest rifles ever made.

I wonder how far along Kirk is on my NEW 40-70ss hunting rifle?

J

[Todd Birch]

No Josh

I was sincere in what I said to Bruiser. I believe he got the gist of the exercise.

Unlike you, he stuck to his guns, and gave as good as he got. The man's got sand. When you couldn't stand the heat, you crawled back into your hole.

You seem incapable of expressing yourself without insult. Pathetic really.
That skull and crossbones wouldn't be because of the vitriol you dispense so freely in place of wit, would it?

"He never met a man he couldn't make dislike him" would be an appropriate sobriquet for you.

You couldn't possibly think that Shiloh's rifle sales could be affected by your crude ramblings, but then, with an ego like that.....

Todd