Hello,
I'm new to this board but have been shooting Shiloh's for a while. No silhouette or long range. Mostly just deer hunting in the woods of Maine.
Anyway, I picked up another Shiloh the other day. Older 1874 rifle, serial number 66XX. It is a two band mlitary style. The crescent butt plate, nose cap and barrel bands are all case colored. 26" round barrel with two bands. Cartridge is 40-70 BN 2.10". Has both Shiloh and C. Sharps markings as well as a wolf's head on the side of the barrel. Extremely nice hi grade wood.
I thru together some loads last night and gave it a try during my lunch break. I was very pleased with with 1", 5-shot groups, from a rest at 50 yds. I look forward to some fine tuning.
I called Shiloh with the serial number but this rifle wasn't in the book. I'm not familiar with this model. Can someone tell me what model it is and if there are many of this style around?
I appreciate your help.
Thanks.
Scott
2-Band Military Rifle?
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Rich Siegel
- Posts: 610
- Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2002 7:53 am
- Location: Maine
Scott,
I'm also living in Maine now! I'm not sure about the Shiloh two band military model but originally, after the Civil War, the Springfield armory took some of the Sharps CW percussion rifles and converted them to two band, 50/70 rifles. I read an article that documented one of the Springfield rifles was used by the Indians at the Little Big Horn defeat of Custer. I wish Shiloh would duplicate those rifles, rather then the three band '74 rifles currently made today.
Rich
I'm also living in Maine now! I'm not sure about the Shiloh two band military model but originally, after the Civil War, the Springfield armory took some of the Sharps CW percussion rifles and converted them to two band, 50/70 rifles. I read an article that documented one of the Springfield rifles was used by the Indians at the Little Big Horn defeat of Custer. I wish Shiloh would duplicate those rifles, rather then the three band '74 rifles currently made today.
Rich
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SBS
- Posts: 11
- Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 6:55 am
- Location: Maine
Thanks Rich. All the Shiloh military rifles I've seen have been the three band musskets. I'm hoping someone knows when they discontinued these, how many where made and what the model was called? Of course maybe it was just called a 2-band military rifle! It is a very handy rifle. Quick to the shoulder with good balance and just slightly forward weighted. Should make a good woods rifle for deer this fall!
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nineteen76
- Posts: 256
- Joined: Fri Nov 15, 2002 8:15 pm
- Location: South Dakota
Shiloh 2-Band Cadet
SBS,
Your Shiloh 2-band Cadet, serial no. 6624 is a custom one of a kind ordered by a fellow in California from Shiloh in 1983 for his lady friend.
Don't recall his name right off. He was involved with movies in Hollywood.
I purchased the rifle from him and hunted Whitetails along the Sioux River with it for a couple years. Almost had it rebarreled to a 14 pound Buffalo gun, but decided that it was unique and should be left alone.
I sold the rifle to a fellow in Texas (St.L) who I see had it listed on one of the auction websights.
A very neat little package! I took a big 5X5 and a doe with it.
Are you shooting Black or smokeless?
Good Hunt'n
Chris
Your Shiloh 2-band Cadet, serial no. 6624 is a custom one of a kind ordered by a fellow in California from Shiloh in 1983 for his lady friend.
Don't recall his name right off. He was involved with movies in Hollywood.
I purchased the rifle from him and hunted Whitetails along the Sioux River with it for a couple years. Almost had it rebarreled to a 14 pound Buffalo gun, but decided that it was unique and should be left alone.
I sold the rifle to a fellow in Texas (St.L) who I see had it listed on one of the auction websights.
A very neat little package! I took a big 5X5 and a doe with it.
Are you shooting Black or smokeless?
Good Hunt'n
Chris
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SBS
- Posts: 11
- Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 6:55 am
- Location: Maine
Thanks Chris! I didn't think I would get information that was this specific. I plan on leaving it as is since it is one of a kind. I used smokeless for the 20 rounds I've loaded to date. 27 grains of 4198, corm meal filler to the top, .030" vegetable fiber wad, .406" dia. 245 grain bullet with SPG lube. It seemed to like the lighter bullets. I also shot some groups with 370 grain bullets but the group size doubled. If you had any pet loads for it I would appreciate any advise you might have.
Thanks for the info!
Scott
Thanks for the info!
Scott
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SBS
- Posts: 11
- Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 6:55 am
- Location: Maine
Since this is a unique rifle here are a couple of pictures for those who are interested:
http://img28.photobucket.com/albums/v84 ... sleft2.bmp
http://img28.photobucket.com/albums/v84 ... psleft.bmp
http://img28.photobucket.com/albums/v84 ... sleft2.bmp
http://img28.photobucket.com/albums/v84 ... psleft.bmp
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Todd Birch
- Posts: 2133
- Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2004 12:01 pm
- Location: Somewhere in the Cariboo ....
Two band rifle
Hey SBS
There are two ways I could like that rifle more:
- (a) if it was chambered in .50-70
- (b) if it was mine
Most of my BP rifles are in military configuration. Being an old soldier, I've never cared much for the gussied up civilian versions.
If there is an historic precedent for it, Shiloh might be convinced to make a run of them. I'll bet they'd sell out well in advance.
Good on ya, mate! Enjoy it and take good care of it.
Todd
There are two ways I could like that rifle more:
- (a) if it was chambered in .50-70
- (b) if it was mine
Most of my BP rifles are in military configuration. Being an old soldier, I've never cared much for the gussied up civilian versions.
If there is an historic precedent for it, Shiloh might be convinced to make a run of them. I'll bet they'd sell out well in advance.
Good on ya, mate! Enjoy it and take good care of it.
Todd
"From birth to the packing house, we travel between the two eternities ....." Robert Duvall in "Broken Trail"
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Rich Siegel
- Posts: 610
- Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2002 7:53 am
- Location: Maine
Todd,
Looking at Sellers' book, the Springfield two band Sharps were made from converted 1863 rifles. The difference in the outward appearence of the actions, the Shiloh 63 and 74, is very small so a Shiloh rifle made with two bands would look very much like a Springfield. It appears, without comparing the actual original rifles, that the Shiloh 74 could be turned into a two band by just leaving off the middle band at time of production, thus saving production time and money. The only priblem is that the sling swivel must be placed on the front band. Now if the front band is the same size as the middle band on the standard production rifle, the issue could be easily solved. If not, well that's another story.
Rich
Looking at Sellers' book, the Springfield two band Sharps were made from converted 1863 rifles. The difference in the outward appearence of the actions, the Shiloh 63 and 74, is very small so a Shiloh rifle made with two bands would look very much like a Springfield. It appears, without comparing the actual original rifles, that the Shiloh 74 could be turned into a two band by just leaving off the middle band at time of production, thus saving production time and money. The only priblem is that the sling swivel must be placed on the front band. Now if the front band is the same size as the middle band on the standard production rifle, the issue could be easily solved. If not, well that's another story.
Rich
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Todd Birch
- Posts: 2133
- Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2004 12:01 pm
- Location: Somewhere in the Cariboo ....
Shiloh Two Bander
Hey Rich
I just had a look at my 3 band '63. The front barrel band is a smaller diameter and of course lacks the sling swivel.
Lopping a few inches off the barrel would allow resetting of the nose cap and elimination of the front band.
I had to make that choice recently when I had 6" lopped of a three band Argentine roller. In Layman's book on the military rollers, I found a picture of a two band artillery "musketoon" with a 28" barrel.
We used that as a model and essentially what I have is a three band "musketoon" that retains all the bands, nose cap and keeps the swivel on the middle band. Since my rifle has a 30" barrel, it is more of a 'short rifle' configuration than a 'musketoon'.
Had I chosen to use a block base front sight instead of the dovetailed blade, most people wouldn't know it from some odd ball arsenal conversion.
I'm looking forward to making a bid on a Farmingdale .50-70 '63 Military Rifle at the end of the month. If I get it, it won't be getting the chop. I'll be quite happy with it as it comes.
Regards, Todd
I just had a look at my 3 band '63. The front barrel band is a smaller diameter and of course lacks the sling swivel.
Lopping a few inches off the barrel would allow resetting of the nose cap and elimination of the front band.
I had to make that choice recently when I had 6" lopped of a three band Argentine roller. In Layman's book on the military rollers, I found a picture of a two band artillery "musketoon" with a 28" barrel.
We used that as a model and essentially what I have is a three band "musketoon" that retains all the bands, nose cap and keeps the swivel on the middle band. Since my rifle has a 30" barrel, it is more of a 'short rifle' configuration than a 'musketoon'.
Had I chosen to use a block base front sight instead of the dovetailed blade, most people wouldn't know it from some odd ball arsenal conversion.
I'm looking forward to making a bid on a Farmingdale .50-70 '63 Military Rifle at the end of the month. If I get it, it won't be getting the chop. I'll be quite happy with it as it comes.
Regards, Todd
"From birth to the packing house, we travel between the two eternities ....." Robert Duvall in "Broken Trail"
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nineteen76
- Posts: 256
- Joined: Fri Nov 15, 2002 8:15 pm
- Location: South Dakota
Shiloh 2- Band Military
"SBS"
Scott,
I shot only black powder in the rifle. Accuracy was okay for 100 yard hunting. The little 45-2.10" has got it's short falls. If you seat your bullet properly (using a short enough bullet to accomodate the short neck) the rate of twist seems to be off. I used Lyman bullet mold #403169, a 240 grain flatnose .406" (made for the 40/65 lever action) opened up to .408" and 2F Goex. I beleive original Sharps cartridges for the 40/50 BN weighed 265grains.
I had fouling problems with black powder, whereas the 3rd round was difficult to load, partly due to the throated chamber. My 3-shot groups went 2 1/2-3" @ 100 yards.
Sounds like you have it shooting darn good with the 4198 and the .406"
bullet (possibly the same Lyman bulllet mold?).
If you want to get rid of the corn meal filler, you might try 22.0 - 23.0 grains Accurate Arms XMP5744 behind your 245 grain bullet. Velocity will be in the 1200-1250 fps range.
Good Hunt'n,
Chris
Scott,
I shot only black powder in the rifle. Accuracy was okay for 100 yard hunting. The little 45-2.10" has got it's short falls. If you seat your bullet properly (using a short enough bullet to accomodate the short neck) the rate of twist seems to be off. I used Lyman bullet mold #403169, a 240 grain flatnose .406" (made for the 40/65 lever action) opened up to .408" and 2F Goex. I beleive original Sharps cartridges for the 40/50 BN weighed 265grains.
I had fouling problems with black powder, whereas the 3rd round was difficult to load, partly due to the throated chamber. My 3-shot groups went 2 1/2-3" @ 100 yards.
Sounds like you have it shooting darn good with the 4198 and the .406"
bullet (possibly the same Lyman bulllet mold?).
If you want to get rid of the corn meal filler, you might try 22.0 - 23.0 grains Accurate Arms XMP5744 behind your 245 grain bullet. Velocity will be in the 1200-1250 fps range.
Good Hunt'n,
Chris
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gmartin
- Posts: 361
- Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2004 9:55 pm
- Location: Boise Id
Scott,
Awesome Rifle! I once suggested in another post that Shiloh tool up and make authentic conversions of the type Todd speaks of, in calibers only of the period,ie., 50-70 as just about it, save for some sent out of the country, and I need to research that. Call it the Model 69, have that heavier hammer and percussion side plate thickness. I'm a post killer at times and this was no exception.
Still, awesome rifle, (shoot BP though?)
Gregg
Awesome Rifle! I once suggested in another post that Shiloh tool up and make authentic conversions of the type Todd speaks of, in calibers only of the period,ie., 50-70 as just about it, save for some sent out of the country, and I need to research that. Call it the Model 69, have that heavier hammer and percussion side plate thickness. I'm a post killer at times and this was no exception.
Still, awesome rifle, (shoot BP though?)
Gregg
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Todd Birch
- Posts: 2133
- Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2004 12:01 pm
- Location: Somewhere in the Cariboo ....
Shiloh Two Bander
I think what Gregg might be referring to are the Sharps '55 slant breech carbines Robbins and Lawrence made up for the Brits in their .58 bore size.
A later batch were made up in .50 and the earlier ones rebarrelled later at English arsenals.
Listening to the agonies the guys are going through with their '63s in .54, I'm quite happy with mine in .50.
Todd
A later batch were made up in .50 and the earlier ones rebarrelled later at English arsenals.
Listening to the agonies the guys are going through with their '63s in .54, I'm quite happy with mine in .50.
Todd
"From birth to the packing house, we travel between the two eternities ....." Robert Duvall in "Broken Trail"
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gmartin
- Posts: 361
- Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2004 9:55 pm
- Location: Boise Id
Todd,
The rifles I mention are of the conversions done following The Civil War, and the basic design eventually became the '74. They worked with various extractors and by 1869 developed the last of the officially designated military conversions utilizing the '59.'63' and '65 percussion actions. This I glean from Sellers. Caliber was almost universally the 50-70 save for foreign contracts.
Gregg
The rifles I mention are of the conversions done following The Civil War, and the basic design eventually became the '74. They worked with various extractors and by 1869 developed the last of the officially designated military conversions utilizing the '59.'63' and '65 percussion actions. This I glean from Sellers. Caliber was almost universally the 50-70 save for foreign contracts.
Gregg