Sorry about the style of my posts, Word™ doesn't translate well to this forum.
I write in an "outline" style.
Where ever the little boxes or circles are in front of a line, that is usually clarification for the line above, or a new topic.
Good luck,
Lee Wolff
Casting help for newbies by a newbie part 4 clarifications
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sharps452.875
- Posts: 6
- Joined: Sun May 30, 2004 10:38 pm
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Texas Shooter
- Posts: 1092
- Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2003 3:51 pm
- Location: North Texas
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sharps452.875
- Posts: 6
- Joined: Sun May 30, 2004 10:38 pm
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horsefly
- Posts: 265
- Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 8:59 pm
- Location: West Texas
Good Morning, sharps452.875;
Your experiences are going to be useful to a lot of folks. I only have a couple of comments to make.
First, you said that you turned the mould and dipper upright as quickly as possible. I find that it is perfectly alright to turn it up slowly. I feel that this causes less turbulence in the pour and may help avoid air bubbles. However, with +/- 0.3 it apparently works well for you.
Second, you said that you wipe the surface of the lead between bullets and don't flux except to start. I, too, wipe the surface of the lead with the back of my ladle for each pour, but I don't remove anything from the pot. I then need to flux after about every forty bullets. I'm not losing tin that way.
So far as warming the mould before casting, I agree that warming by casting is a waste of time. When I start and when I restart after adding lead and fluxing, I rubber band the mould handles together and sit the mould where the bottom is barely in the melt for about a minute and a half. If anyone tries this, be sure and wipe the seam between the two blocks so no small lead particles sneak in between the faces of the blocks.
There are a lot of casters out there that should read your set of posts.
Y'all be good.
horsefly
Your experiences are going to be useful to a lot of folks. I only have a couple of comments to make.
First, you said that you turned the mould and dipper upright as quickly as possible. I find that it is perfectly alright to turn it up slowly. I feel that this causes less turbulence in the pour and may help avoid air bubbles. However, with +/- 0.3 it apparently works well for you.
Second, you said that you wipe the surface of the lead between bullets and don't flux except to start. I, too, wipe the surface of the lead with the back of my ladle for each pour, but I don't remove anything from the pot. I then need to flux after about every forty bullets. I'm not losing tin that way.
So far as warming the mould before casting, I agree that warming by casting is a waste of time. When I start and when I restart after adding lead and fluxing, I rubber band the mould handles together and sit the mould where the bottom is barely in the melt for about a minute and a half. If anyone tries this, be sure and wipe the seam between the two blocks so no small lead particles sneak in between the faces of the blocks.
There are a lot of casters out there that should read your set of posts.
Y'all be good.
horsefly
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sharps452.875
- Posts: 6
- Joined: Sun May 30, 2004 10:38 pm
horsefly,
I don't worry about losing tin. The Lyman "Cast Bullet Handbook" leads me to think that you can't get the lead and tin to seperate at normal casting tempertures. Is it right? Beats me!
I actually don't stir when I flux at first, I just let the wax burn to a crisp, and then scrape the crud off of the surface.
I turn the mould and dipper up fast because I would get a lot of surface oxide imperfections on the right side of the bullet (the bottom when you start pouring). I don't know if it was caused by the surface oxide in the dipper, or the lead cooling in the mould while I turned them upright. Either way, a stream of lead out of the dipper and into the mould, and turning them upright together quickly works for me.
I don't worry about losing tin. The Lyman "Cast Bullet Handbook" leads me to think that you can't get the lead and tin to seperate at normal casting tempertures. Is it right? Beats me!
I actually don't stir when I flux at first, I just let the wax burn to a crisp, and then scrape the crud off of the surface.
I turn the mould and dipper up fast because I would get a lot of surface oxide imperfections on the right side of the bullet (the bottom when you start pouring). I don't know if it was caused by the surface oxide in the dipper, or the lead cooling in the mould while I turned them upright. Either way, a stream of lead out of the dipper and into the mould, and turning them upright together quickly works for me.
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13Echo
- Posts: 445
- Joined: Sat Dec 27, 2003 6:02 pm
- Location: Monroe, LA
Sharps,
A large part of the crud you are skiiming off is oxidized tin, especially so at the high temps used. It is true the molten lead and tin will not separate by gravity since they form a true solution, however, tin will preferentially oxidize and form dross. If not returned to the melt by fluxing, which reduces the oxidized tin back to metalic tin, you will gradually lose the tin from your alloy. Not desirable. It may be a pain but proper fluxing will help preserve the alloy so it is nearly uniform from start to finish.
Jerry Liles
A large part of the crud you are skiiming off is oxidized tin, especially so at the high temps used. It is true the molten lead and tin will not separate by gravity since they form a true solution, however, tin will preferentially oxidize and form dross. If not returned to the melt by fluxing, which reduces the oxidized tin back to metalic tin, you will gradually lose the tin from your alloy. Not desirable. It may be a pain but proper fluxing will help preserve the alloy so it is nearly uniform from start to finish.
Jerry Liles
Jerry
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Tasmanian Rebel
- Posts: 2117
- Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2003 3:39 pm
- Location: Bay Springs, MS
Sharps, I think you are correct about the tin coming out of the alloy. Like horsefly, I used to be worried about skimming the lighter tin off the top but have read in several places(including the Lyman book you mentioned) that once the tin is mixed, it's kinda like mixing tea in water-it won't "precipitate" out. I have had an interesting discovery recently on pouring about something you mentioned above on the speed you turn your mould up. I started out casting with Lyman and Saeco moulds then graduated to a Paul Jones mould. With all of these moulds I can get really good bullets with a fast turn of the mould and ladle. I recently got Steve Brooks to make me a mould approximating a Lyman Postell. I was having trouble getting this mould to throw good bullets and went back and read the instructions(Duh) and discovered Steve recommended a slow 4 sec plus speed on rolling the mould/ladle unit upwards. The bullets immediately started filling out with perfect sharp bases! I was also having problems with lead specks getting in the mould vent lines as I posted on a post below and this problem mysteriously disappeared with the slower rate of turn. I'm not sure what's happening here except these bullets from Steve's mould are absolutely perfect now and the bullet really performed well these last couple of days on the range. After the holiday period here I'm calling Steve up to get him to make another mould EXACTLY like this one for a backup. A mould that will throw a good bullet for your gun is worth it's weight in gold. Good luck!
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Smokin
- Posts: 1216
- Joined: Sat Dec 21, 2002 11:47 am
- Location: Minnesota: Land of Loons, Lakes, and Lutefisk
Ain't casting fun
Tasmanian Rebel,
I've just finished casting about 300 bullets, which is much, much above my daily quota. I can generally take only about a hundred bullet's worth of casting before I get sore and bored from standing in front of my melting pot. I suppose I could sit, but visions of the old dear at the MacDonald's drive- thru keep me from experimenting with that approach.
But to get to the point. I think the Brooks' process works because the slow tilt gives the molten alloy time to push the trapped air out of the way via the vent lines and the gap between the top of the blocks and sprue plate before it begins to freeze. I think a quick tilt may work for our friend sharps452.875 because he is using a rather high melt temperature.
I haven't weighed my bullets yet, but my initial visual cull only sent 3 out of 306 bullets back to the pot. I seem to cast differently than most in that I return the sprues back to the pot as I cast; this requires my fluxing about every 25 bullets, but I feel that fluxing is a needed process anyway. Also my keeper weight variance is +/- 1/2 grain. I am going to try some testing one of these days to see if that range can be expanded. Half a grain with 500+ grain bullets is quite a small percentage. Maybe less than reasonable. My recent casting session was with a new Lyman Postell mould. Initial checking indicates this mould casts a 530 grain bullet, with my alloy, and has a driving band uniformity of .0003" and no run-out on the nose bore riding section.
Disclaimer here: this is with my carpenter's touch on a machinist's precision insstrument - those micrometers look so much like cute little C-clamps, as my uncles who were/are machinists cautioned me they are NOT. 
Cheers, the casting fool and once reformed lubaholic,
I've just finished casting about 300 bullets, which is much, much above my daily quota. I can generally take only about a hundred bullet's worth of casting before I get sore and bored from standing in front of my melting pot. I suppose I could sit, but visions of the old dear at the MacDonald's drive- thru keep me from experimenting with that approach.
But to get to the point. I think the Brooks' process works because the slow tilt gives the molten alloy time to push the trapped air out of the way via the vent lines and the gap between the top of the blocks and sprue plate before it begins to freeze. I think a quick tilt may work for our friend sharps452.875 because he is using a rather high melt temperature.
I haven't weighed my bullets yet, but my initial visual cull only sent 3 out of 306 bullets back to the pot. I seem to cast differently than most in that I return the sprues back to the pot as I cast; this requires my fluxing about every 25 bullets, but I feel that fluxing is a needed process anyway. Also my keeper weight variance is +/- 1/2 grain. I am going to try some testing one of these days to see if that range can be expanded. Half a grain with 500+ grain bullets is quite a small percentage. Maybe less than reasonable. My recent casting session was with a new Lyman Postell mould. Initial checking indicates this mould casts a 530 grain bullet, with my alloy, and has a driving band uniformity of .0003" and no run-out on the nose bore riding section.
Disclaimer here: this is with my carpenter's touch on a machinist's precision insstrument - those micrometers look so much like cute little C-clamps, as my uncles who were/are machinists cautioned me they are NOT. Cheers, the casting fool and once reformed lubaholic,
Smokin
Member in tall standing of the Frozen Tundra Chapter, Flat Earth Society.
Member in tall standing of the Frozen Tundra Chapter, Flat Earth Society.
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buffalocannon
- Posts: 1584
- Joined: Sat Feb 15, 2003 2:03 pm
I have set up a little shelf off the side of my lead casting pot by utilizing a vise and a hunk of metal. When I start melting the lead I set my Brooks Creedmoor mould on the shelf so that the blocks are sitting on the lip of the lead pot. By the time I start casting the mould is ready and starts throwing perfect bullets. Despite the literature and protestations of the experts I no longer flux. Every 10 minutes or so I drag the gray surface until it is shiney silver and continue casting. I weigh all of my cast bullets and they are always within my parameters of 545 to 545.5. If you guys are striving for closer tolerances be my guest. Life is too short.
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Tasmanian Rebel
- Posts: 2117
- Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2003 3:39 pm
- Location: Bay Springs, MS
Smokin, I used to stand also but with my job on my feet all day I knew something had to give. It's funny but I had the same worries as you- I could just see a bunch of molten metal in my lap. To protect from this I wear leather boots, heavy Filson tin-cloth bibs, and then on top of this I lay a leather shop apron over my lap that completely covers all of my legs. I have a large rectangular pan that I then put in my lap to catch the sprues. This pan has walls high enough so I can rest my forearms while waiting for the sprue to harden among other things.To my left I have a small low table covered with towels to catch the bullets when they drop and keep this table close so all I have to do is just turn to reach it. The trick is to keep everything close (including the lead pot) so I don't have to bend my back. I use two fans, one to draw the fumes/smoke away and another behind me aimed at my head to keep me cool and added protection. With this setup I've gone as long as 7 hrs at one sitting but my usual pour is 2 hrs or so. You may want to try some variation of this sometime-you will/maybe be able to pour more bullets like this. I'm looking forward to seeing you at Quigley this year. Hope you have a safe trip over there.
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Ray Newman
- Posts: 3817
- Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2002 1:22 pm
- Location: between No Where & No Place, WA
Buffalo Cannon: interesting observation & results w/ your "no- flux casting".
I'll try it the next time I cast.
One question-- @ what temperature do you cast? I shoot a heavy Jones Creedmoor bullet & w/ his mould, I need to hold the melt to approx. 850 degrees.
Have you found that your "no-flux casting" only works w/in a certain temperature range?
I'll try it the next time I cast.
One question-- @ what temperature do you cast? I shoot a heavy Jones Creedmoor bullet & w/ his mould, I need to hold the melt to approx. 850 degrees.
Have you found that your "no-flux casting" only works w/in a certain temperature range?
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buffalocannon
- Posts: 1584
- Joined: Sat Feb 15, 2003 2:03 pm
Dear Ray Newman
In my continuing quest to simplify my life and this BPCR business, I must testify that I have no idea at which temperature I am casting. I now have the standard large cast iron pot and burner from Buffalo Arms one can run off of the propane tank on his barbecue, which is what I do. When I am casting, I take the tank off of the barbecue and hook it up to the burner. I usually melt quite a bit of lead at a time. I use an old metal cutoff table from which I have removed all the cutting machinery, wiring etc. The legs are metal and stand up high enough for me to erect a little metal shelf to the lip of the casting pot, upon which I rest the mould as soon as I start casting. I start casting bullets as soon as all the lead melts. I leave the burner turned all the way up. When the lead starts to get down a little low and the bullets start to take on that bluish color, I quit casting and add lead until the pot is full again. Once the bluish color disappears, I start casting again. Like I said, when I see a little gray start settling upon the lead, I scrape it off and continue. At the end, I pour the left over lead into some of the old Lyman ingot moulds. I guess I haven't yet felt the need for an electric lead pot and thermometer. I did recently replace my old balance scale with a 1500 digital one, but only because I started weighing my bullets and my old scale didn't go high enough for these Sharps bullets. I enjoy reloading for my Sharps almost more than anything else I do. I made some of the reloading equipment I use and it seems to work well. Thanks for asking.
In my continuing quest to simplify my life and this BPCR business, I must testify that I have no idea at which temperature I am casting. I now have the standard large cast iron pot and burner from Buffalo Arms one can run off of the propane tank on his barbecue, which is what I do. When I am casting, I take the tank off of the barbecue and hook it up to the burner. I usually melt quite a bit of lead at a time. I use an old metal cutoff table from which I have removed all the cutting machinery, wiring etc. The legs are metal and stand up high enough for me to erect a little metal shelf to the lip of the casting pot, upon which I rest the mould as soon as I start casting. I start casting bullets as soon as all the lead melts. I leave the burner turned all the way up. When the lead starts to get down a little low and the bullets start to take on that bluish color, I quit casting and add lead until the pot is full again. Once the bluish color disappears, I start casting again. Like I said, when I see a little gray start settling upon the lead, I scrape it off and continue. At the end, I pour the left over lead into some of the old Lyman ingot moulds. I guess I haven't yet felt the need for an electric lead pot and thermometer. I did recently replace my old balance scale with a 1500 digital one, but only because I started weighing my bullets and my old scale didn't go high enough for these Sharps bullets. I enjoy reloading for my Sharps almost more than anything else I do. I made some of the reloading equipment I use and it seems to work well. Thanks for asking.