Shiloh Rifle Forums

Clearly Johnny V and SSS Shooter, etc.........this is about a very specialized, focused manufacturing operation. Far as I know it was the only one in the country making black powder from scratch. Granted, Unions and economies of scale can and do form symbiotic relationships, especially in the construction and trades areas. That is not what this is about.

However, that is not what is in question here. Here we are talking about what is probably an ultra unique case, a one of a kind. Where are you going to get a journeyman black powder maker? If you have the only shop in the states making black powder and you don't have one in your shop what do you do? Because you are a Federal Contractor you work within Federal Hiring Rules and hire someone and train them. But, are you able to pick and choose who you think is the most qualified or by Federal Regulations do you have to follow affirmative action guidelines and who do you get to train them. Duh, even if they are capable of being trained. So you automate the plant. And, duh. It gets blown up. Again. The admonition of 1995-96 comes home to roost when you are unable or unwilling to bring the experienced powder makers from Pennsylvania to Louisianna and regardless of the upgrades in production equipment mistakes, quite possibly human caused, keep happening. And, to complicate things, you don't need one Journeyman Powder Maker you actually need seven because of demand and production realities you have to run this shop 24/7/365, with three full shifts. (Think double or triple shifts.)

If unionized there is a contract. If it is necessary to run the plant 24/7/365 the plant will require more than three full shifts over time. If semi skilled labor supply, highly skilled as well as very scarce, cannot meet demand that will shut down the operation just as sure as an explosion. Sort of a name your poison scenario. I have been on both sides and I can guarantee you that there are certain issues that management simply cannot be flexible on and arbitration cannot fix because they are inherent in the work so there goes production and profits and down the tube goes the operation and everybody else is looking for work elsewhere.

Managerially this presents more than three critical negative (no skilled labor, general labor shortage, high risk work environment, etc) lever points in the plan projection. Which means each negative lever point is about a guaranteed failure that will over time cause the plan to fail. Two or more can be catastrophic and that is probably what happened here. What the failure point or points are/were that were inherent in the operation that continues to cause these explosions is where the investigation needs to go. If these insidious negative lever point cannot be sufficiently mitigated the project cannot be fixed and that is probably where this is today.

Good comments Glenn and DD....

Re-Directing this thread back to the Goex closing!!

Most people would have to admit that the likely reasons for choosing Louisiana as a site for operating a powder mill would be 1: Lack of environmental or safety regulations, and 2: low local wage scale.

A poster above already noted that "the performance of the powder went down because the best workers stayed in PA" (paraphrasing)...why do you suppose they did that? Just like S&W's move to Tennessee, it most likely has to do with super low wages which are greatly beneficial to shareholders, but not beneficial at all to the guy actually doing the work.

Also, we have a seeming dearth of explosion reports from the Swiss factory over the same time period. Maybe the libtards in the "lame stream media" have been covering for them all this time? It's much more likely that they have their $#!T dialed in.

In the end, it's not about union vs non-union...it's about competent workers vs incompetent workers. Huge accidents happen for tiny reasons.

Exactly Johnny V. ------just offering a nonscientific wild ass guess, there may be a factor (lever point) in the redundancy of the process that requires enhanced understanding and careful processing than implemented every time at that particular point or points in the powder making process. Maybe more than one but one would be all it would take.

Good point about Swiss but I really don't have inside information about them.

I’ve always been a black powder guy myself but with this happening and other black powder brands being very difficult or impossible to find is anyone considering something like triple 7? It’s all fine to say I’ll wait until black powder is in stock in some other brand however long that takes but deer season is upon us. I’ve never shot the stuff just curious what luck anyone had had in a Paper 54 cal Sharps, 45/70, 50/70 Sharps, or flintlock or if anyone else is considering it given this new situation so please don’t fry me too hard for asking. Under normal circumstances I’m all for black powder.

Unless of course someone in the central Arkansas area is willing to donate a can of FF for the season…

From my experience Triple 7 hits it's stride in muzzle loaders.
Pyrodex RS in the 45-70 requires careful load development and can be quite accurate

I used some Blackhorn 209 in 45-60 and it worked well. Requires the use of magnum primers. Loads like BP in that you cannot have anything less than a full case and slight compression is recommended.

So is that to say triple 7 doesn’t do as well in cartridges as something like pyrodex and vise vesa? Have you ever tried it out in a flintlock? Curious what issues you’ve run into if any or any special considerations? I did read that they suggest backing your black powder load off by 15 percent to achieve the same pressure but I would just assume a load development process would solve that issue. I’ve always been told none of the substitutes work well in the pan but I’ve got plenty of FFFF anyways but I’ve read mixed reviews from people on its reliability in the barrel and a lot of those people don’t seem to have actually tried it themselves.

My biggest concerns are .50 and .36cal flints, 50-70 in an original conversion carbine (I am willing to accept only black powder is safe in that and it should just see less use), and a shiloh 63 in .54.

I have some triple 7 and will have to give it a try in my flint guns and in the pan.

I have a can of Goex, "clear shot". Given to me and I've never looked at it. Is it something that will be available or go with the black?

Darts …

Bow and arrows, John ! Actually I went over to Sportmen's Warehouse the other day and they told me that even my preferred brand of carbon arrows are selling like hot cakes.

Gussy, Goex Clear shot is no longer made it was fructose based and again the plant burned causing one death. it will degrade fast if exposed to any moisture. That aside a friend just used up a can of it in his CVA Hawken and it worked well.

For those of you who shoot the big bores, Back Creek Gun Shop has a good supply of Goex 1F. The web address is http://www.blackpowderva.com. Their e-mail is bcgsi@visuallink.com. He is out of Goex 2F and 3F and will not be getting any more. He has some Swiss and Schuetzen powder and also has some Elephant if anyone wants any of that.

Is Elephant & KIK still being made?

Wayne