Shiloh Rifle Forums

Posted: **Mon Dec 20, 2021 6:07 pm**

semtav wrote: ↑Mon Dec 20, 2021 1:44 pm
Don McDowell wrote: ↑Mon Dec 20, 2021 1:10 pm There’s a reason for that
Yes. I'm just a lowly refrig door/ gong shooter.

I defer.

Nice try at the pity party. But even with the fatter money bullet patched to groove, 16-1 still proved better, but even from 20-1 it consumed as much case space as a grease groove, and wouldn't shoot as well. So I sold the mould.
Shooting grease groove money bullets, 20-1 works 18-1 works better, and 16-1 works very well, so in the interest of keeping it simple, 16-1 for most everything, makes keeping alloy around is plentiful quantity much simpler.

Posted: **Mon Dec 20, 2021 9:24 pm**

Don McDowell wrote: ↑Mon Dec 20, 2021 6:07 pm But even with the fatter money bullet patched to groove, 16-1 still proved better, but even from 20-1 it consumed as much case space as a grease groove, and wouldn't shoot as well. So I sold the mould.

Haha!! Nuff said !!

Posted: **Mon Dec 20, 2021 10:00 pm**

kenny sd wrote: ↑Mon Nov 15, 2021 2:25 pm age old question. I have to buy lead again.
20 to 1 or continue with 16 to 1?
375 grain GG bullet for a 40 70 SS shot at 100 yards.
think it will make any difference at all..

thanks...Ken

To answer your question, I do not think it will matter with that load at that distance, but I do believe 16-1 is better than 20-1 in my load rifle combination at longer distances. For 5 to 6 years I’ve been shooting certified 20-1 in the silhouette game and made it to AAA class. In early 2021 I decided to shoot 16-1 in a BPTR long range match at Lodi in May. I’m shooting a 45-70 with a PP elliptical, 78 grains of Swiss 1 1/2 and I figured if my 20-1 mix had any nose slump at all it would be devastatingly noticeable by the time my bullet got out to 1000 yards, especially if the wind picked up.
Needless to say I shot really well at 1000 yards so I was happy. I got to thinking that maybe, just maybe, nose slump might be occurring and at the turkey line, maybe , just maybe on windy days my turkey scores were down because of it, so I used 16-1 for the remainder of the 2021 shooting season.
The results were more 10 turkey pins in 2021 than all 5 of my previous years combined. I can’t prove its the 16-1 but I ain’t going back to 20-1 for this load rifle combination.

KA

Posted: **Tue Dec 21, 2021 3:18 am**

Kurt wrote: ↑Mon Dec 20, 2021 8:26 am Ron,

I might add. I have a friend that shoots a .45-110 and he uses a PP MB cast with 1/20 and he usually ends up on top or very close to the top at the Gong shoots when he gets the first shot hit. Mostly no sighters at those matches.
Even 1/16 lead/tin you will find land marks on the ogive ahead of the shank that don't hurt a thing except you will be cleaning out some lead smears when your done shooting.

Don McDowell wrote: ↑Mon Dec 20, 2021 9:12 am http://www.shilohrifle.com/forums/viewt ... 56#p333956

Kurt & Don,

I read through the "Proofing my load" thread and I think I see what you both are talking about. In my own simplified way, "If the lead is too hard for the load/velocity it won't deform/shorten enough to get a good gas seal and if the lead is too soft there will be too much deformation and the the bullet could be moving too fast for the bullet to follow the rifling and smear in the barrel. So it's all about getting the optimal combination of lead hardness, load/velocity, and deformation for a particular rifle."

Feel free to correct any misconceptions.

Thanks much guys you've been great.

-Ron

Posted: **Tue Dec 21, 2021 6:38 am**

With a 45-100, loaded with 108.5gr of 1.5F swiss and a bullet made from 17+1lb of 95-5, it is a DDPP design from Distant Thunder, my bullet does not set back, Just last fall I was handed a bullet that I sent short from the 1k line. The rifling marks stopped at the patch line, I guess if your shooting more powder than that you may have different results.

Posted: **Tue Dec 21, 2021 7:43 am**

Ron,

Keep it simple.

Cast or swage 1/16 lead/tin. If you can find now days a good buy on 95/5 no lead solder, hard to find these days, use it also. I like the small percentage of antimony.
If your shooting a GG bullet of proper size that fits the groove you can just about use straight copper or pure tin. Put a good wad behind that groove diameter bullet and it will shoot.
PP patched to bore diameter or 1 or 2 thousands under bore is a different animal, you need an alloy that will obdurate well enough to fill the grooves to get proper rotation plus a good wad stack sealing the gas. The two alloys I mentioned will get this job done. Going to hard for a PP like you read sometimes they used in the old days 1/11 or 1/12 you better patch that bullet slightly over bore diameter to get rotation. I have the tested this hard alloy PP and I would not go this hard for a bullet patched right at bore diameter. I have recovered bullets that show very slight land cuts and gas cuts using just about any wad materials except when using a 1/16" dense cork wad that stopped the gas cuts.

All you Guys/Gals here have a very Merry Christmas.

Kurt

Posted: **Tue Dec 21, 2021 7:46 am**

Kurt and the rest of you guys.
I can't argue with facts. (I'm NOT my wife HA)
after looking at the pictures it looks like 16 to one is the way to go.
I'm going to order some now.

thanks for the answers and the good advice. Ken

Posted: **Tue Dec 21, 2021 9:18 am**

Matt,

How does your recovered bullet compare to an unfired bullet? A side-by-side picture would be interesting.

Back many years ago when I was shooting my Shiloh 45-90 and making the switch from grease groove bullets to paper patch for long range shooting I went from 85 grains of Swiss 1 1/2 under my GG bullet to 105 grains with my PP bullet. I stayed with 20-1 because that's what I had always used.

My recovered 20-1 PP bullets showed occasional off center nose set back, slumping. I went to 16-1 and that hardness set back evenly and my scores improved noticeably.

Then 8 years ago I moved back to a 45-70 for long range and 83 grains of 1 1/2, but I stayed with 16-1 and it continued to work well for me.

I have since tested harder bullets and never really saw an improvement. When I tried Kurt's alloy my scores became more consistent, I felt I had better control of my shot placement. Keeping them on the target and well centered. I believe this was more a result of better consistency in my lead than the alloy itself.

I managed my best scores ever using that alloy at all 3 distances, 800, 900 & 1000 yards, as well my personal best aggregate match scores.

It's not just an alloy thing, there are many pieces to the puzzle, but the 16-1 alloy got me past the "unexplained" shots and I began to see that even the smallest sight adjustments would move the center of my group on the target. Being in control and able to keep the majority of my shot nearer to center has resulted in better scores.

If you're having shots going places that you can't understand there is a reason, a cause. You need to eliminate that cause whatever it is so you have some control over your shot placement. There are several things that can cause errant shots, balancing the alloy to the load is just one of them. I found that 16-1 is never a bad place to start.

As always, YMMV.

Posted: **Tue Dec 21, 2021 10:32 am**

Excellent post Jim

Posted: **Tue Dec 21, 2021 11:12 am**

Interesting: The results were more 10 turkey pins in 2021 than all 5 of my previous years combined. I can’t prove its the 16-1 but I ain’t going back to 20-1 for this load rifle combination.

And for DT results also convinced him. That in itself is impressive.

Perhaps we are making progress here.

One can only hope.

Posted: **Tue Dec 21, 2021 11:33 am**

This thread is turning into some good stuff! The way I read this, if I'm running a money bullet, then 16-1 keeps the nose intact better and therefore helps avoid off center slump and mystery fliers. The 20-1 might be OK for rounder bullets (postell style), but the results are not likely to outperform the 16-1, and there would still be a risk of slump even with those profiles.

Therefore, going with 16-1 provides a margin for error not afforded by softer alloys, and harder alloys may not prove out as better either. A "sweet spot" in other words...

Please kick me back in line if I'm off base here.....

Posted: **Tue Dec 21, 2021 11:41 am**

Jonny you pretty well have it down.
I will throw in tho one of my favorite grease groove bullets the RCBS 82054 530 grain postel type bullet will while shooting well, will leave some traces of lead when cast from 16-1, but not a problem from 20-1.
I also ran into some trace leading shooting the original postel from BACO cast from 16-1 when using MPRO7 on the bore wipers chased by a damp MPRO7 patch, but that went away going back to napa cutting oil and water. So it likely wasn't the alloy, but more the wiping routine.

Posted: **Tue Dec 21, 2021 11:50 am**

OK, I'm running MPro7 on my wipers too. No leading problems so far with 20-1, but there is the occasional mystery flier. I'd like to simplify my life if possible, and it sounds like 16-1 will fit my needs whether I'm shooting 45-70 or 45-100....

Posted: **Tue Dec 21, 2021 12:09 pm**

16-1 works well for me in anything from the 40-65, 40-70,44-77,44-90 st, 45-70,45-90, and 45-110, with the exception of the afore mentioned RCBS bullet.
Here at my house I can shoot from powder burn close to 1000 yards and beyond. I shoot steel targets to load test. It's interesting to see when shooting from the 1000 yard line, the shape of the bullet impacts on the target. Something you won't be able to diagnose in a regular gong match with dozens of other rounds on the target. It's not uncommon for a bullet the rifle only sort of likes to find a perfect side profile in the group, of nice round splatters.
Another thing that is telling is the look of the "dimes" in front of the target. Alloys with high antimony content (, hi being something over 5 %) and tin/lead, and or low antimony content, and bullets such as from Lyman #2 and higher antimony that have age hardened.
The tin/lead and low antimony content bullets are pretty shiny, and evenly thin with fairly sharp round edges. The harder stuff will be dull and show lots of little spider webs, with jagged not terribly round edges.

Posted: **Tue Dec 21, 2021 12:54 pm**

Distant Thunder wrote: ↑Tue Dec 21, 2021 9:18 am Matt,

How does your recovered bullet compare to an unfired bullet? A side-by-side picture would be interesting.

Back many years ago when I was shooting my Shiloh 45-90 and making the switch from grease groove bullets to paper patch for long range shooting I went from 85 grains of Swiss 1 1/2 under my GG bullet to 105 grains with my PP bullet. I stayed with 20-1 because that's what I had always used.

My recovered 20-1 PP bullets showed occasional off center nose set back, slumping. I went to 16-1 and that hardness set back evenly and my scores improved noticeably.

Then 8 years ago I moved back to a 45-70 for long range and 83 grains of 1 1/2, but I stayed with 16-1 and it continued to work well for me.

I have since tested harder bullets and never really saw an improvement. When I tried Kurt's alloy my scores became more consistent, I felt I had better control of my shot placement. Keeping them on the target and well centered. I believe this was more a result of better consistency in my lead than the alloy itself.

I managed my best scores ever using that alloy at all 3 distances, 800, 900 & 1000 yards, as well my personal best aggregate match scores.

It's not just an alloy thing, there are many pieces to the puzzle, but the 16-1 alloy got me past the "unexplained" shots and I began to see that even the smallest sight adjustments would move the center of my group on the target. Being in control and able to keep the majority of my shot nearer to center has resulted in better scores.

If you're having shots going places that you can't understand there is a reason, a cause. You need to eliminate that cause whatever it is so you have some control over your shot placement. There are several things that can cause errant shots, balancing the alloy to the load is just one of them. I found that 16-1 is never a bad place to start.

As always, YMMV.

I will have to look for it. I think I tossed it in my shooting box. it did make contact with the dirt so checking for slump would be tough but, set back was zero. the rifling marks stopped at the line. Im using that same bullet in my 45-90 now and its showing some good potential!!! hopfullly we get some snow to shoot into this winter so I can see those.

On a side note I did shoot some of Arnie's WW+Lino bullets (Lyman 378674) and those shot great Zero leading with SPG lube, in my 38-55

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