Shiloh Rifle Forums

I'm unable to find the root of the cause of extensive leading in two of my rifles and I've hit an intellectual brick wall.......Therefore I'm turning to the experts.
The problem children:
1) 40-50BN, it's late model Farmer, .400/.408, no free bore.
2 Uberti Highwall, 45-70, .450/.459, no free bore.

These rifles are marvelous performers:
1) Pedersoli 1874 in 40-65 .400/.408, no free bore.
2) Shiloh, #3 , Late model, 45-70, .450/.458, no free bore

The bullets: Accurate 330P/.395 and Accurate 500P/.442
It doesn't seem to matter what I use for patching or charge weight, the 40-65 and the 45-70 Shiloh are always solid performers. The 40-50 and the Highwall refuses to respond to patching material, charge weight, seating depth or crimp. the resulting leading has to be seen to be believed.
This may or may not make a difference, as it stands currently there isn't much I can do about it. I am forced to use smokeless in all my loads, I haven't seen blackpowder in well over a year.
I should also mention the both of the problematic rifles shoot grease groove bullets just fine with zero leading and very good accuracy.
If you have encountered a similar situation or see something glaringly obvious in something I may be doing wrong or overlooking, any help or advise would be greatly appreciated.

Jeff Michel

Can we start from the beginning?

Well, actually there is a real possibility there is more information that may be useful, that information concerns WHY ?

SO,

If grease groove bullets are working just fine WHY are you self flagellating over paper patched bullets?

WHY not continue perfecting what you already know works?

Serious leading with pp means you're either stripping the patch, or have some serious gas cutting going on. Are you shooting bore or groove Dia. bullets? I would say from the bullet dia. posted, patched to bore diameter?
A more generous chamber might be the culprit here, combined with smokeless powder: it doesn't do as good a job of upsetting the bullet as BP .
Pretty sure that the use of a larger dia. bullet will eliminate the leading. And probably the different ( tighter?) chamber configuration in the other rifles will be just enough to give you the bullet upset you need.
So either use black or a larger (like patched to groove instead of bore) dia bullet, that should eliminate the issue.

Thanks for the prompt replies.......
I have been patching to bore diameter and up too .002 over. Have not tried groove diameter.
I've considered gas cutting as an issue but with a lack of suitable powder (Black) I am unable to try different wad combinations.
I rummaged around and found some larger bullets to try... BACO in .399 and .451, Have not tried either prior, start inching up to bore diameter?
Why am I doing this if grease groove bullets are working fine? Tough question.......Historical/traditional/ cool factor and probably the dumbest reason is 40 years of casting and shooting has erroneously lead me to believe I know what I'm doing, so the challenge and the opportunity to learn is most certainly there. Self flagellating? Most definitely, got the strips to prove it. After six months of trying different things, It may have to be set aside until or if GOEX will resume production and then start again.
Thanks again

Shooting patched with smokeless generally requires a larger diameter bullet wrapped to groove and is a much different animal than patching with black.
As was mentioned previously the leading problem is likely due to the larger dimension of the troubled rifles, add smokeless to the mix and there's your problem.
One thought may be to try some of the various so called bp substitute powders before spending a fortune on new moulds. Or just stick with your greasers and smokeless until you can get your hands on blackpowder.

I agree about the blow by. PP have to be full diameter , groove not bore, to work.
If you get leading from PP, you are getting blow by.
believe it or not, I hear that pure lead works well with PP. It allows more expansion into the grooves.
I'd also think about thicker paper to increase diameter.
and. a little thicker wad may help prevent blow by.

NOW< I had all these problems and went to GG and never looked back.
GG are much more accurate and no leading at all with 16 to 1 in my Shiloh 74 40 70SS.
Ken

I recently got a 40-2.5 with a standard chamber with a seven degree throat. Using black and bore diam bullets and using alloys from 70-1 to ww with any combination of alloys in between you can think of I got lead. Bad lead. And paper rings.
I was fortunate enough to get a dual diam bullet to try in the thing. And that really did solve all the problems. Using 30-1 i can now work on a load that will do the job I want.
The problem I encountered was the bullet is in the bore but is loose in the case. Which caused excessive bump up and paper rings.
The other solution would have been to make a bullet that fit the case and would swage down into the bore. But that sets the bullet too deep into the case loosing a lot of powder capacity.
With smokeless it is a lot harder to get accuracy but a softer bullet works better than a hard one.
A heavy patch burnished in a sizer die will help.
But nothing works better than black.which is around you just have to work a bit to get some and most likely it will have to come off the internet.
In my 40-50 I have used 1,2,&1.5 ,Swiss,OE,goex and a lot of different brands that are not even made any more they all worked when I did my part.

Using smokeless, you need to spec a pp bullet as you would a metallic jacketed bullet.

desert deuce wrote: ↑Thu May 19, 2022 10:05 pm

If grease groove bullets are working just fine WHY are you self flagellating over paper patched bullets?

WHY not continue perfecting what you already know works?

DD ,
By that logic , why are we even using black powder or cast bullets or these old guns when jacked bullets in modern rifles are so much more efficient.

You know because it's an addiction that can't be explained to those that don't have it.

So too is the paperpatch addiction.

One you are fortunate ( or unfortunate in some of our minds) not to have contracted .

FWIW>>>>>>> PP with smokeless

https://loaddata.com/articles/PDF/Bench ... %20LR2.pdf

Paper rings are there if your chamber has a 45º transition. Some say they never have them but they are there if you look for them. I have a few rifles with that 45º and even if the case is trimmed tight I find a very thin ring on the lip of the case mouth or I find them on the patch but they are there.
Below is a bullet I deep seated to see what the effect the 45º transition has on a soft bullet using 1/20 L/T alloy. and a case trimmed .005" short to keep it from getting pulled into the troth and you can see that the alloy got expanded into the gap between the case mouth and the 45º transition bad enough to strip the paper and damage the bullet shank and also a paper ring from the previous shot got picked up and cut a groove into the ogive.
Hard to say what the ring riding with the bullet did for accuracy. Here is another I wanted to see the effect of a breach seated and one in the case. The left was a breach seated using 1/12 alloy patched to groove diameter. The obturation is very shallow but deep enough to get rotation and you can see that I did not breach seat it deep enough that the 45º left it's mark on the very bottom of the base. I have shot bullets with the same alloy patched 1.5K under bore and the cuts were barely visable '
Here are bullets patched to bore with a hard 1/10 alloy with just one .03 fiber wad that got gas cutting. I cant down load more pictures. My .50-2.5 Shiloh I have put more rounds through it then any of my other rifles, lost count after 23K or more rounds through it when we had the last primer shortage. I kept track by numbering the bricks I would just shoot in a couple rifles.
The .50 shows signs of erosion between the case mouth and the 45º transition that it has a deep ring and it shows a lead buildup in that wash. None of my rifle chambers I use that have the 4º, 5º and 7º show the signs the 45º gives.

Kurt

Here is the .50 chamber and the paper rings if you enlarge the rings and look at the top string you can see fine ring buildup before it moved.

When you have bullets that leave the muzzle looking like these fired in a chamber with a 5º transition and they are not doing well down range it's not the bullets fault.
Well nuff of this
Y'all be safe and have fun.

Kurt