To all accomplished Shiloh Rifle Shooters

[Texas Shooter]

To all accomplished Shiloh Rifle Shooters:

You might find this crazy but,...............

If any of you feel comfortable with this, Can you list successful recipes that you have found, and the specifics of the loads.

The loads should be for factory Shiloh rifles only with the factory barrel and rifling. I have heard over the years that the twist rates may have been altered, so include the twist rates and caliber of your rifle, and very important, "your accomplishments with these loads."

Other interesting facts might be:

Length of Barrel
Type of barrel (Regular, Heavy, Bull)
Twist rate
Powder brand
Powder size or type
wad/wads type and size
Bullet lube
Method of application
Primer type
Bullet style
bullet composition
Ratio of materials
Grease groove discription (Standard, modified)
Starting size of bullet
Finished size of bullet
Amount of compression
Brand of brass
Length of brass
Anealed?
Primer pocket modified?
Overall length
Unique assembly techniques
Brand and make of press
Brand and type of dies
Brand and type of other equipment
Sights type
insert types

Anything else?

I know that's a tall order, but I think it would be very informative to have a collection of some "Proven" loads for the Customers of Shiloh Rifles specifically.

I also think it would be good to the owners of Shiloh Rifles Mfg. to help these rifles perform at their best in the field and in competition. They have been so nice and helpful to me in this initial learning period, and they supply this site for us to socilize and learn from.

Any thoughts?

Thanks,

Texas Shooter

[Omak Cowboy]

This is an excellent idea and the information produced here in could be distilled and sent with each rifle.

I've been reading this board for some time and note that there is often much written on this topic but I've yet to see a quantified discussion.

Gunny, Kelly Roose, Kenny and a few others have taken much time to write on this but it would be really neat to print it out on say 5 X 7 cards for a load file. Yes, I've read many times that our mileage may vary and that each rifle will tell us with it wants but I very much suspect we are going to see a band width of information where in a certain barrel length and weight seems to in general like a certain formula. Yes I expect some variance here too, but is will be interesting if we can get enough data to see what kind of bell curve we can produce.
Omak

[crazeyiven]

Great idea.

It might be interesting to enter this data into a database and see if any trends show up.

If there is enough response we might be able to see trends by caliber, by powder, by barrel length and several others.

I might suggest that you take data from other than Shiloh Sharps (have them indicate and mfgr). It might show an edge by brand (I'm sure Shiloh would like to have that honor).

I have designed and maintain several databases with a large law office in Kansas City. It would be nothing to setup the fields, enter the data and see what happens! The more the better!

[Texas Shooter]

David and Omak:

Thanks for the support. The master shooters on this board have always been real helpful with their advise, suggestions and load data. My goal is to see if enough "Good" data can be collected to reduce the learning curve for the newbies and the prospective buyers of Shiloh Rifles.

Many of the people I have spoken to, see the task of load developement a version "reinventing the wheel". With family and work, they simply don't have the time or knowledge to experiment and tinker around with the load developement. The time they do have, they would like to spend working on their shooting techniques or competing.

After spending $2000+ on a rifle, they would like to think that with minimal effort, they could have match quality performance out of their gun. (The shooter performance is another story )

There will alway be the gun, "Super Cranks" that can make anything shoot well, and then there is the other 98% that could really use the help.

Let's see if we can help get assembled a Shiloh Rifle performance guide for shooters and buyers. I do think everyone associated with the Shiloh product line would benefit greatly from it. Like the fine craftsmanship and the service Shiloh brings to the table, this would just add another reason to buy here and go no further.

Thanks,

Texas Shooter

[Omak Cowboy]

Tex, I'm with you 100% on this issue.

You are absolutely correct that after dropping at minimum 2K on a rifle and then be looking at a learning curve just to get it to shoot really puts a roadblock that thre must be a way around.

If we look at who buys these guns I'm sure we would find some retired folks and others of us who by virtue of having the money don't have tons of time. Life is like that. In my youth I had lots of time and no money and now I DO have a few bucks but not much time. So it makes sense to try to make this whole affair as painless as possible.

Yep I know some cranks who love to tell you the scew turns 3 3/8 of a turn and not 3 5/16. I'm not one of those though it's sometimes fun to talk to 'em.

I can pretty easily get well below 1./2 minute on my rifles and pretty darn tight on my pistols. Now that's smokeless and I know BP is going to be different and getting sloppy 1/4 minute out of my Sharps is probably not doable. I dont' know why I could not get a minute at 100 yds though - from a bench.

Like many hear range time is found time and I don't have a whole lot of "found time'. I'd like to spend my range time improving my shooting skills and not fighting the rifle.

Seems to me the best way to do this is with enough data to form a core load and set of values and from that proceed to play. So what would that core data be, and what would be the most reasonable expectation of accuracy? How about 2 - 3 minutes at 100 as a minimum expectation? That's about what factory loads in smokeless will do though the same weapon once loaded with good handloads and good technique will do far better.
Omak

[Gunny]

Load data basis exist now for BPCR rifles. This same type of project has been under taken by more than one shooter on the old Shooters.com board, these are still out there and are published from time to time. Coydog has also done an extensive data base, and it is free for the asking. Coydog posts here and on the BPCR board as well.

Now after saying that there never has, to the best of my knowledge, been a rifle specific data base done. I would seriously doubt if there would be any benefit to a data base dedicated only to Shiloh Rifles. In this game working up a load is not really rifle specific or action specific.

From reading your post Texas Shooter it seems as if you are saying that you simply do not have the time to spend in load work up, and are looking for short cuts. I certainly can understand the time it takes to work up a serious load, and what with family and friends, kids, baseball, football and all of the other time restraints out there it can be a daunting task. But son I am here to tell you there are no short cuts in this game. If you want a load to shoot and be competitive you yourself are going to have to do the work. You can take "SOME" of what you read here as a guide line and go from there, but they are only really guide lines.

It can not be stressed enough that you must let the rifle tell you what it wants. To try and tell the rifle is a reciepe for failure pure and simply. Using someone else's load is telling the rifle, and usually the results are a lot of dirty cases and burned powder, and you are still looking for that magic bullet. Working up a load for a Black Powder Cartridge Rifle is "NOT" some form of black magic. It is a series of steps that have been proven over and over again. Not difficult steps, just steps. Keep really good records, use the best components you can find, be meticulous in your loading and succes "WILL" follow.

Any Shiloh Rifle is capable os shooting far better than any of us can hold, FAR BETTER!! If in your search for that MOA load you hit the wall ask questions here, are go to Kirk. Every one I have met in this game with very few exceptions has been willing to bend over backwards to help any new shooter.

But after saying all of that you are probably saying to yourself " He just wants to rain on my parade" What an a$% hole. So I am going to get this load thing started by posting my two Match Proven loads for my Shiloh. I doubt if whithout the work they will work for you but what the hell you never know.

Load One.-- Winchester Fireformed Brass " NOT SIZED"
Swiss 2fg Powder 68 grns "Not Drop Tubed"
No Compression
Winchester Large Pistol Primers
.060 LDPE Wad
Paul Jones Creedmoor 550 grns as cast from 30 to 1 ALLOY
Bullet for this load is set way out of the case, so that the second driving band is fully engaged in the rifling. There is "NO" neck tension. This load last year shot on Rams in 16 Silhouette matches a 151 rams.

Load Two,-- Stairline Fireformed Brass "Neck Sized" and expanded for .001 neck tension
Swiss 2fg Powder 61 grns "Drop Tubed 30 inches"
Compression is .095"
Federal 215 Mag Rifle Primers
.030 Veg Fiber Wad
Paul Jones Round Nosed Spitzer 536 grns as cast from 30 to 1
Bullet for this load is seated with all greese grooves covered. This is a new load for me and goes against all of the common wisdom for using Swiss Powder, that is Rifle Primers, Compression etc. This has been a very good load so far and shows great promise on the turkeys, it however was devoleped and shot originally on the Rams or 500 meters and has shot some very good groups there. As a side note if I had not been willing to push the envlope and experiment and go against common wisdom i never would have found this load.

Good Luck to you Texas Shooter and try and find a little time for load work-up.

Gunny

[crazeyiven]

Gunny-

I, for one do not find that your comments make you an a$% hole. They would probably make a good preamble to Texas Shooter's data! Your comments are right on and most others that talk about loads make the same point. You have to do the time to get the accuracy.

There are also a lot of posts from folks that are not really interested in competition, at least right off and others that just want to hunt. They are not looking for a match round right off, just one that can find the side of the barn at whatever range they are interested in. I think the desire for match accuracy will come along later, especially for new folks, after some initial success. I believe they will begin to think along the lines of "I wonder what this load will do if I work or tweek on it some more?!"

My take on what Texas Shooter was going for was something to help new folks narrow down and find a starting point. While folks are waiting for their order to arrive they could take a look at a list of what others have done, perhaps by their specific rifle, and give them a place to start. Granted, just as you and several others have pointed out, this may not work out and more testing will be required. But, it gives them a point to start. With all the powders, bullets, primers, wads, lube, how to lube, brass, bullet tension and a host of other variables it can seem an impossible task. Kind of like putting someone in a round room and telling them to go sit in the corner! Especially for someone that is new not only to the rifles but to reloading too.

For folks that have been doing this awhile, it might ignite some thoughts to try something different with their own loads. It might suggest to someone a trend in a caliber that may want to try...maybe even order a new rifle!

That's my 2 cents. It worth what you paid for it!

A question Gunny. Did I miss in your post what caliber your loads were for? Went through it a couple of times, could not find it.

[Jim Kidwell]

Gunny,

Right on! One thing you forgot to mention was trigger time. We had this discussion last year at Raton. You said the only way to progress in this Game is to shoot, and shoot a lot. I took your advice and jumped to AAA after a short time. Now I wonder how many decent loads I had experimented with before but threw away because of lack of 'trigger time'.

There are no standard loads, only standard starting points in load development. You can only recognize a good load, if you have enough 'trigger time'. Again, thanks Gunny... BTW, I am bringing a snake bite kit to Raton this year. LOL..................Jim

[Gunny]

Crazey,
The caliber is 45-70, it is a rebarreled Farmingdale Shiloh with a 34" barrel.

I undersatand that any new shooter needs a starting place. But Texas Shooter made the statement, That after spending $2,000. or so on a rifle that the shooter should be able to get "Match quality performance out of there gun" Just ain't so!! The $2,000. gets you one of the finest reproductions of one of the finest rifles ever designed, "One of them" and nothing more. The match quality performance comes after a lot of work, and time. There are no short cuts!!

Now if what you fellers are looking for is a load that goes "BANG" and expels a bullet down range, that is no problem. But if in the process of that "BANG" you want to actually hit something besides the dirt. You are going to have to spend the time.

What exactlly is "Match quality performance"? and What is a trully accurate load? If you are a silhouette shooter as I am, you need a load that shoots 1 1/2 to 2 MOA groups, 1 1/2 is much better and 2 MOA is the Max if you are going to win a match from time to time. This 1 1/2 to 2 MOA group "MUST" hold up for at least 15 rounds. This is not an easy task. When you buy a new smokeless bolt action today most of them come with a practice target shot by someone at the manufacturer. These almost always have a 3 shot group shot at a hundred yards from a machine rest of around a inch. The manufacturer then calls this shinny new rifle a 1 MOA rifle. This makes me want to laugh, why not just shoot a one shot group and call it a 1/2 MOA rifle. We demand a lot from these old Black Powder Rifles, we exspect very good accuracy from them, but we have to do our part as well. We dont use a machine rest, and we certainly dont shoot very often from 100 hundred yds, we want 1 1/2 MOA accuracy each and every time and at "500 meters" The long range guys want it at 1,000 yds. And we get it.

"NO SHORT CUTS" Unless the bang alone makes you feel all warm and cozy inside.

Enough, enough -- The data base is a good idea, a damn good idea and I hope the posters here respond to it. But dont think for a second that compiling a data base is going to substitute for time working up loads and trigger time. The time would be better spent laying on the mat with that new $2,000 Shiloh resting on the cross sticks doing what they do best, knocking stuff over and going clang.

Gunny

[Texas Shooter]

Gunny:

Thanks for your post. You are certainly not an as$%^YU, I have been reading your post for quite a while and I appreciate your candidness. Here are my thought regarding your remarks.

1) Shiloh produces probably the best "Sharps" rifle that can be found.

2) Part of the word "Best" means that they have good reproduceable manufacturing techniques (tight consistant tolerances over time)

3) The letter was "Only" to elicit loading and rifle data from "Accomplished" Shiloh Rifle shooters. People who know how to shoot, People who know how to reload, use a blow tube, use the sights......and so on

4) Believe it or not I have 4+ Shiloh rifles on order as we speak. After reading the liturature, seeing the products at shows, and speaking to people who were accomplished with them, I was sold on them. I knew going in that it would take some extra effort to make the BPCR sing. That's no problem, and for me part of the fun. However, I'm not a Rifle Crank (I wish I was), my strong points are more business related, but one of my greatest passions is shooting and collecting beautiful firearms.

I do/have Shoot/shot on a Team for some time. (Action Pistol) I wanted to explore other shooting types and styles, this is how I wound up here. My sample list of "Other shooters that I have spoken with" involves primarily those I have shot with in the past. Like here, a great group of helpful people.

As I have read in the past, BPCR competition is making a comeback and the people who have nurtured the sport are wanting to see new shooters get involved with it. This is one of the goals of collecting this data is for them (People like me), the new BPCR shooter. I want Shiloh to also get a big push from this also. They have provided this board, and a terrific product for people to enjoy. I'm biased, I also like family businesses.

5) The Magic Bullit? I Don't believe in them. (Not even with the case of JFK, but that's another subject ) I do believe (Hypothesize) however, that when it is all said and done, and load Data is examined, that ALL the "good" loads with be very similiar. What will be left is the consistant loading technique of each successful shooter (That's why I wondered about the presses and dies and..............)

6) There will still be plenty of variables regarding the shooting conditions and the manufacturers products from lot to lot. Not to mention the Shooter's personal variables. That will be everyones ball to juggle.

I hope this helps.

Texas Shooter

[Omaha Poke]

Gunny, you are right, it takes work, and lots of it. Tomorrow, I am going to the range to try a new bullet from a mould that I was sent for testing. I am starting with a load that I know has worked in the past for a bullet of similar weight, but different design. I also made up 4 other loads that are similar but have one thing different, the primer. I made up 20 rounds of each, and this should be a good starting point to see if this rifle likes this particular bullet.

We were instructed to make up enough bullets so that we could "adequately" test the bullet. I made up 400, and by the time I am done testing different loads, I am not sure that will be enough . Hopefully I will be able to find an acceptable load from the 400 bullets, but you never know. Randy

[crazeyiven]

Gunny-

Can not agree with you more about getting that match load. Ammunition and accuracy and like computers and data...garbage in, garbage out.

I have been shooting 45-70's for a tad over 20 years, mostly original trapdoors, a H&R Officer's Model and even a converted Siamese Mauser. I have always reloaded for them. Settled down with one rifle in particular and started playing with the loads...finally ended up with a nice load. However, a few months ago I read something on the site, ordered a new mould, changed powder and primer and starting over again. It's fun and challenging.

As to the database, Randy made a comment above about the new bullets that I think would support its purpose... he said, "I am starting with a load that I know has worked in the past for a bullet of similar weight, but different design." Its a place to start. As you have emphasized, work with a load in your own rifle and trigger time are the only thing that will get you there.

It like aircraft design. They design aircraft with multi-million dollar computers and software. When its all "perfect", they build it. What then?? They want some guy to get in behind the stick, light it off and see what happens! Then they tinker with it until it is "perfect"! Same with these rifles....pick a load, get behind the trigger and light it off...then tinker till it right!

Have'nt writter this much in months! Anyway, enjoyed your posts, and the others. And, hey...you're the first one to put any loads in the pot!!!

[don marable]

Texas Shooter:

Like some of the other posters, I agree that having a starting point for a new shooter would be nice. I am fortunate enough to live within 45 minutes of Bill Bagwell, aka Rdnck. He is an accomplished shooter. He just won the overall Wasserburger shoot in the Wyoming Territory. I shot my first two shootings at his place. His instructions on how to use the blow tube and "run the rifle" were more helpful than a bullet recipe. I mention this to let you know that aside from having a well loaded round there are many other important aspects of BP shooting.

I shoot a Shiloh 45-110. It is the Quigley model. I had never shot BP until January of this year. Kenny Wasserburger and others on this site shoot bullets in the 540 grain range, either Postell or Creedmoor by Lyman or Paul Jones, with 105 to 108 grains of Goex Fg. That is enough information to make a starting load, because the variances on primers, brass, brass preparation, bullet seating depth, seating dies, crimping dies, drop tubes, bullet length, powder compression, annealing or not, neck tension, neck sizing, full length resizing, and on and on and..................

I have worked with these many concepts for the past three months. I started shooting five and six inch groups at 100 yards. I now average two inch groups at 100 yards. Some days a little more and some a little less. Sometimes I have a magic moment and shoot a five group of 1-1/4 inches. I have one group with six shots in .75 inches with a flier three inches to the left. My point is, as I continue to experiment and refine my loading process the shooting is improving. Also, I think that having fired 500 plus rounds of trigger time has been invaluable. I am shooing with 65 year old eyes with cataracks in both eyes. My vision is barely correctable to 20-20. I am hoping that my eye doctor will opt for corrective surgery this summer.

In summary, take someone's proven bullet recipe, load it, shoot a lot and experiment. And as Gunny emphasizes, keep good records. Learn how to clean your rifle and prepare it for the first shot, the killing shot if you are a hunter. Unless you are exceptionally lucky and well skilled you will not get where you want to go without a lot of time and experimentation. I do wish you well. This is a fun thing.

Don

[Kirk]

Kirk, Heather, Lucinda, and Levi's load. Keep in mind we are in the same boat as far as time goes, but this does keep us in the AAA scores, and by not being the best chicken shooters in the world.

40-65 Win. Load
Win. wlr primers
Rem. cases
DGL & pan lubed
Brooks turkey killer, 400 grain, as cast, 25-1, no front driving band
and tapered to hang 2 greese grooves into the rifling.
60 grains Goex ffg, dropped from a uniflow connected to the drop tube
and run through a modified Dillon 550.
.030 plastic wad covered with a paper wad and compressed
around .370" and then inline seated with no crimp.

( CONSISTENCY, CONSISTENCY )

Then we load up and go to a match and practice, usually the State
match!!!!

[TYRVR]

My dang feelings is hurt! I got fussed at and my sitting down parts was threatend on another board for making a joke about only the best shooters being able to post here when the Shiloh server was fritzed, and now somebody is wanting "ACCOMPLISHED" shooters to volunteer their loads.....talk about elitism.....who decides who is accomplished? and what if somebody that is only about three quarters accomplished slips in a load......is there a liability factor? ......now... I consider myself accomplished, but not at shooting, as thats called bragging where I come from and folks look at you funny, I am halfway accomplished at playing a 4 string banjo....but I ain't gonna brag, so.....until I see the published criteria for where the cut-off is on "accomplished" I will refrain from posting all them super accurate loads of mine........because I might have a load that will shoot under a minute of angle at 1500 yards.....but I can't share it ....cause I lack 3 points on the "accomplished shooter" scale.

THIS IS A JOKE! A JOKE! YOU KNOW..... NOT SERIOUS.....JOKE. PLEASE DON'T ANYBODY GO SQUEALING TO KIRK THAT THEY AIN'T ACCOMPLISHED EITHER AND FEEL ESTRANGED AND HURT!

Ol'Tye, still nervous from the last time I made a joke.