44-77 Tight Chamber?

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Griff
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44-77 Tight Chamber?

Post by Griff »

As I noted over on the "My Shiloh Journey" thread (https://shilohrifle.com/forums/viewtopi ... =2&t=26805), I recently picked up my Hartford Model 44-77 rifle. As I prepare to load ammo, I'm anticipating a steep learning curve. No doubt I will display my ignorance here, but I have some initial issues/questions.

I am not new to handloading. I even load for an obsolete caliber (.45-75 Winchester) and I've been loading black powder in 56-50 Spencer and .45-70, so I have a little bit experience with black powder rifles. The vast majority of my experience is with standard smokeless calibers, but I'm not afraid of a bit of a challenge.

Before I chose to have this rifle in .44-77, I bought a bunch of formed cases from BACO (50-110 headstamp). I also bought a mold to get me started so that I could at least shoot the gun while I decided on a mold for the long-term. The mold is a Lyman 446187 (470 grain) and I sized the bullets to .446. Following advice from this forum, I bought a 43 Mauser die set.

I have no experience with paper-patched bullets, but I'm hoping to start using them at some point. I planned to start with grease-groove bullets, then branch into paper-patch bullets later. I did ask for the 7 degree leade in the chamber.

Once I had the rifle home, I found that unsized brass won't fully chamber, being too tight in the web area. I've had to full-length size the brass to compress the web area. If I leave the expander ball in place, the resized brass is now too wide in the neck area. If I size with the expander removed, the sized brass drops into the chamber, although the dies set back the shoulder. I doubt that I'll have to full-length resize very often now that the web area is compressed; the shoulder will fire-form and I should be fine (I think).

Now to my first issue. When I seat a .446 bullet in the case, the neck area is now too large to chamber. (I'm working with unprimed and uncharged cases with just a bullet to check dimensions.) As an experiment, I ran the inert rounds into the sizing die with the decapping pin/expander ball removed. I sized the necks down and the rounds would chamber, but of course that effectively sized the bullets as well. The pulled bullets now measure close to .440. I doubt that a .440 bullet in a .446 barrel would be very effective.

What am I missing here? Is this chamber set up primarily for paper-patch bullets? Could the brass be too thick in the neck area? It doesn't look overly thick, but I don't have the proper micrometer to measure it. Are there better brass choices? Even though I'm not using an actual 44-77 die set, that doesn't seem to be the problem here--unless thinking sideways, it is just bullet diameter (.446) + brass thickness = more than the chamber neck diameter.

I should note that I'm not at all disappointed at this point. The rifle is absolutely beautiful (photos are in the other post) and I'm glad to have a less than common caliber. I like handloading challenges...IF I can solve the problems in the end. If I can't get this figured out, I will be disappointed, but I'm not there yet.

No doubt this is the first of a number of questions; thanks for your patience!

Griff
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Re: 44-77 Tight Chamber?

Post by Griff »

I forgot to mention: the loaded rounds measure close to .470 outside diameter at the neck.

Griff
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Don McDowell
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Re: 44-77 Tight Chamber?

Post by Don McDowell »

The nose of that bullet may be a bit large to fit the .438 bore of the Shiloh
Measure the bullet nose and see where/if it measures to .438 and determine if you can seat the bullet deep enough to chamber it with out the base going past the bottom of the neck
Fwiw you’ll likely find that any bullet longer than 1.35 will give you fits in the wind
1.3 being about the longest that will work well consistantly
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Re: 44-77 Tight Chamber?

Post by Don McDowell »

The nose of that bullet may be a bit large to fit the .438 bore of the Shiloh
Measure the bullet nose and see where/if it measures to .438 and determine if you can seat the bullet deep enough to chamber it with out the base going past the bottom of the neck
Fwiw you’ll likely find that any bullet longer than 1.35 will give you fits in the wind
1.3 being about the longest that will work well consistantly
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Re: 44-77 Tight Chamber?

Post by DaveC »

I don’t know to what extent a .43 Mauser die set works on a .44-77, since the correct dies came with my rifle when I bought it used.

It came with approximately 250 cases made from reformed .348 Winchester brass, which I assumed were supplied by Buffalo Arms back then. About 100 of these had been outside neck turned, and sized, loaded and worked with grease groove bullets of ~0.446” or so diameter. The rest were simply sized to the caliber.

I found that a grease groove bullet of proper diameter could not be seated easily in these unturned shells, and the rounds would not chamber when they were. On the other hand, the thick-necked brass was ideal for bore-diameter paper-patched bullets wrapped to 0.438” or so. So I sequestered the cases for the appropriate bullets and use them that way.

If you can get hold of a tubing micrometer, check your case wall thickness. If it’s much greater than 0.011” or so, you are probably in the same situation I was. Get an outside neck-turner and thin a few (but not all) of them, and tune yourself up with grease groove load development. But by all means, save some of the thick-neck ones for paper-patch work in the future.

The .44-77 is one of the all-time great calibers. As long as you can get or make shells, it’s fascinating to play with.
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Re: 44-77 Tight Chamber?

Post by Distant Thunder »

Griff,
First the good news. The problems you're having can be solved with a bit of effort. I was where you are 3 years ago after having my old, 30 years old, Shiloh rebarreled by Shiloh to .44-77. I went a bit different route, I went with their standard chamber primarily because I wanted to shoot paper patch bullets and I felt that would be the best chance of success. I based that on the success I had with their standard chamber in a .45-70 and a .45-90. 

I also wanted to shoot longer, heavier bullets than Shiloh's 19-twist would allow, so I went with a Krieger 17-twist. Even with those differences I had the same things to overcome with my rifle. I may not be able to answer questions specific to your 7 degree chamber but I can help with the other stuff.

I also use BACO .50-110 converted brass and I had to neck turn all my brass to get to where I could chamber a case with a 2-diameter paper patch bullet. I would not have had to do that if I had stayed with bore diameter PP but I wanted to work with both types. Grease groove never entered my mind, but that's just me.

I also used a Lee .43 Mauser size die and that worked fine for the initial sizing. I did anneal my cases down into the shoulder area for fire forming. I did not want to split any cases in the process.

I first bought some JBA brass, which is no longer made, and they work well without the neck thickness problems. I do prefer the BACO brass for my rifle.

My .44-77 is my favorite rifle/cartridge and I shoot it more than all the others. I wanted a .44-77 for as long as I have been shooting BPCRs, 30 years, it just took me too long to actually get one. It is NOT a cartridge for beginners or anyone who isn't looking for a challenge, it has a few, but they are easy enough to overcome if you're willing to take the time to do so.

I saw your post on your new rifle and it's a beautiful rifle! You'll enjoy it very much once you get past the setup. There are a good number of shooters of this fine, old cartridge and they can help as much as you need to get there. I surely will.
Jim Kluskens
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Griff
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Re: 44-77 Tight Chamber?

Post by Griff »

Thanks for the input, gents! I have high hopes.
Don McDowell wrote: Sun Aug 28, 2022 4:20 pm The nose of that bullet may be a bit large to fit the .438 bore of the Shiloh
Measure the bullet nose and see where/if it measures to .438 and determine if you can seat the bullet deep enough to chamber it with out the base going past the bottom of the neck
Fwiw you’ll likely find that any bullet longer than 1.35 will give you fits in the wind
1.3 being about the longest that will work well consistantly
My choice in rifle and caliber is partially your "fault" following some correspondence that we had a few years ago when I was making decision.

I don't believe that the bullet nose is hitting the lands since it is unmarked, but I'll take a measurement. I'll also want more of your input when I finally get around to ordering a mold.
DaveC wrote: Sun Aug 28, 2022 4:28 pm I don’t know to what extent a .43 Mauser die set works on a .44-77, since the correct dies came with my rifle when I bought it used.

It came with approximately 250 cases made from reformed .348 Winchester brass, which I assumed were supplied by Buffalo Arms back then. About 100 of these had been outside neck turned, and sized, loaded and worked with grease groove bullets of ~0.446” or so diameter. The rest were simply sized to the caliber.

I found that a grease groove bullet of proper diameter could not be seated easily in these unturned shells, and the rounds would not chamber when they were. On the other hand, the thick-necked brass was ideal for bore-diameter paper-patched bullets wrapped to 0.438” or so. So I sequestered the cases for the appropriate bullets and use them that way.

If you can get hold of a tubing micrometer, check your case wall thickness. If it’s much greater than 0.011” or so, you are probably in the same situation I was. Get an outside neck-turner and thin a few (but not all) of them, and tune yourself up with grease groove load development. But by all means, save some of the thick-neck ones for paper-patch work in the future.

The .44-77 is one of the all-time great calibers. As long as you can get or make shells, it’s fascinating to play with.
Thanks, Dave. I was starting to figure out that the case necks would either need to be turned or reamed. Saving some thick-necked cases for paper-patch is a good idea.
Distant Thunder wrote: Sun Aug 28, 2022 4:45 pm Griff,
First the good news. The problems you're having can be solved with a bit of effort. I was where you are 3 years ago after having my old, 30 years old, Shiloh rebarreled by Shiloh to .44-77. I went a bit different route, I went with their standard chamber primarily because I wanted to shoot paper patch bullets and I felt that would be the best chance of success. I based that on the success I had with their standard chamber in a .45-70 and a .45-90.

I also wanted to shoot longer, heavier bullets than Shiloh's 19-twist would allow, so I went with a Krieger 17-twist. Even with those differences I had the same things to overcome with my rifle. I may not be able to answer questions specific to your 7 degree chamber but I can help with the other stuff.

I also use BACO .50-110 converted brass and I had to neck turn all my brass to get to where I could chamber a case with a 2-diameter paper patch bullet. I would not have had to do that if I had stayed with bore diameter PP but I wanted to work with both types. Grease groove never entered my mind, but that's just me.

I also used a Lee .43 Mauser size die and that worked fine for the initial sizing. I did anneal my cases down into the shoulder area for fire forming. I did not want to split any cases in the process.

I first bought some JBA brass, which is no longer made, and they work well without the neck thickness problems. I do prefer the BACO brass for my rifle.

My .44-77 is my favorite rifle/cartridge and I shoot it more than all the others. I wanted a .44-77 for as long as I have been shooting BPCRs, 30 years, it just took me too long to actually get one. It is NOT a cartridge for beginners or anyone who isn't looking for a challenge, it has a few, but they are easy enough to overcome if you're willing to take the time to do so.

I saw your post on your new rifle and it's a beautiful rifle! You'll enjoy it very much once you get past the setup. There are a good number of shooters of this fine, old cartridge and they can help as much as you need to get there. I surely will.
Thanks for the encouragement, Jim. You probably noticed that the tang sight on my rifle might look a little familiar... :D

I have never outside turned brass before. Does anyone have recommendations regarding the proper tools? Doing a quick internet search, this is what I'm coming up with. Does this look like what I'd need? Am I on the right track?

RCBS Turner:
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1012935393?pid=516187

.44 Caliber Pilot:
https://www.buffaloarms.com/rcbs-44-cal ... 90424.html
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Re: 44-77 Tight Chamber?

Post by Don McDowell »

LOL sure blame me.... :D
Will be happy to correspond with you when you get ready to figure out what you want for a bullet mould.
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Re: 44-77 Tight Chamber?

Post by DaveC »

The choice of neck turning tools kind of depends on what you’re after in the way of neck thickness. The Sinclair-type hand tool, (as copied by RCBS and probably others by now) was originally made to true up case necks so that the outside was concentric with the inside. You’d set it up so the case was thinned down to the minimum thickness on the thin side. The resulting case would be scraped bright maybe 300 degrees around, with the thinnest 60 degrees still the patinated brass of the original thickness.

This was for benchrest competitors who wanted the maximum concentricity of case, chamber and bullet with just enough case expansion to let the bullet go on firing. They would then deprime the case, tap it into and back out of a Sinclair neck-sizer (like a Lee Loader), reprime with a Sinclair reprimer, drop a powder charge and seat a bullet with a Sinclair hand seater, and go on from there.

Prepping 50 or 100 shells to this extent (just a few thou off the thickest part of the necks) was a lot of two-hand work that I found got a little painful on the hands and fingers by the time it was done. The benchrest guys didn’t care as they’d get a lot of use out of the shells afterwards. But using this setup to actually take enough stock off thick necks to thin them down to grease-groove bullet status would be an ordeal, to my way of thinking. But check your neck thicknesses and see how much needs to be removed. It might not be as bad as it sounds, who knows?

I didn’t turn the necks on my .44-77 shells, as they were already done. But what I did use in forming cases to other odd calibers was an attachment that Lyman sells that attaches to their crank operated case trimmer. It sets a little roundnose lathe tool against the outside neck of the case and advances it down the neck as you turn the crank. Depending on your level of skill and care, this can do a nice or a pretty gnarly job of thinning case necks. The benchrest guys sneer at such setups, because they’re not good to a thousandth of an inch on a hundred cases, but it’s always been close enough for me, and it does hog away the excess a lot quicker and more painlessly than the hand turners.
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Re: 44-77 Tight Chamber?

Post by Distant Thunder »

Griff,

The tang sight does look familiar! I must say it looks good on your rifle!

As for the RCBS neck turner, that is similar to what I used and should work. The pilot from BACO should be .448-ish to allow for a .447 grease groove bullet, but that is just my opinion being I never used neck tension back when I shot grease groove bullets many years ago. I liked a slip fit and to seat my GG bullets to engage the rifling. I don't know for sure if that is the best approach for the .44-77, but others will know.

Because I make stuff when I could more easily buy it, I made my neck turner and pilot. Mine is similar to the RCBS unit. I ended up turning the necks a second time after fire forming my cases. The second go round took very little brass off but just made all my cases more uniform. It was well worth the effort, but that is the story with a .44-77. You gotta work at it bit more the other clamberings, but for me the reward was worth it.

With your 7° lead you may not be touching the rifling with your bullet. I don't know just how that chamber works, others here may.

Don is absolutely correct about the 19-twist and bullet length. A little bit depends on how far you plan to shoot. A somewhat longer bullet, 1.320 to 1.350", may shoot well out to 500 or 600 yards, but for 800 and beyond 1.300" will be better stabilized in the wind. There are other factors to consider. In the end, if you push the limits of the bullet length to twist rate the only way to know if a given bullet can remain stable when the winds are up is to shoot that bullet in your rifle when the wind is blowing and see. I tend to stay a little shorter with my bullets than the computers will say is stable. I've had bullets that would shoot good one time and not the best the next, very frustrating.

Take your time with your .44-77 and get things set up right first, then you can enjoy the old cartridge and some fine shooting.
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Re: 44-77 Tight Chamber?

Post by Griff »

Dave, I was hoping to get an attachment for one of my case trimmers (I have a Lyman and an L.E. Wilson), but it looks like the Lyman is discontinued and may not have been made for cases larger than .375 anyway. I believe that the Wilson attachments would be a custom order proposition. If I can make the RCBS tool do the job, then I'll give that a go.

I really do appreciate the input and advice I'm getting! I find that wrestling with issues like this are enjoyable and even moreso with the support I'm getting here.

I should mention that my ultimate goal is to branch into paper patch bullets, partially because they are what we're originally used, but I'm taking it in stages. Since I have no experience with paper patch bullets, I'm starting with the more familiar territory before adding something else that's new to me.

Thanks again!

Griff
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Re: 44-77 Tight Chamber?

Post by Distant Thunder »

Griff,

This will be a journey like few others in the BPCR world. Take your time, think each step through and ask if you have questions.

Most of all, ENJOY THE JOURNEY!

You are correct, paper patching for the .44-77 is the way it was done. Paper patching was fairly easy for me once I got a little help in the right direction. Sadly, it's not that way for everyone. I think you are going about this the right way and I wish you luck.
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Re: 44-77 Tight Chamber?

Post by Yellowhouse »

What Don McDowell said about the RCBS 370 mold. The nose is too large even for standard chambers. Its a good hunting design so sell it and buy the look alike Accurate mold but order it with a .434-5 nose.

First thing though is to get your brass i.e. necks thinned or find some that are .009 or 10. Eleven will be too thick unless you are paper patching. A loaded round at .470 probably won't ever chamber....it needs to be in the realm of .466.

To be sure either chamber cast or measure the diameter of a fired round then start adding case neck thickness x2 and your bullet diameter to determine what will chamber.

In any case you need to find some Jamison brass, turn the necks on what you have, or maybe get BACO brass made from .348 Winchester as it tends to have the thin necks.
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Re: 44-77 Tight Chamber?

Post by 77 sharps »

Before I went to the trouble and expense of neck turning the brass, I’d pick about 5 cases , anneal them and fire them a few times. Then recheck the fit. As far as accuracy goes, I shoot bore diameter and sub bore diameter bullets in my Sharps all the time with great accuracy.
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Re: 44-77 Tight Chamber?

Post by Griff »

It appears that you may be right about the bullet that I'm trying to use. The front band of the bullets (sized to .446) measures... .446. If I drop a sized bullet into the chamber and slightly tap it into place with a dowel, the bullet only goes in 1.68", which is far too short to be able to chamber in a loaded round.

This has me wondering. Should I still pursue turning the case necks or should I skip ahead and find another bullet mold?

Griff
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